I think the Remain parties have got it wrong

Nonnie

But why didn’t remain do that? I think it’s too late now as project fear was so counterproductive people are entrenched.

Added to that and not exclusively Brexit related there are so many so called experts on everything on the internet and conspiracy theories people don’t know who to believe and often follow dangerous ideologies like the anti vaccine brigade

GrandmaKT well put.

Witzend are you suggesting it is a coincidence that the London housing market has fallen? I wonder if there is a correlation between EU citizens unsure of their status and others just frightened to commit until they see what happens.

I agree MaizieD

JE as I recall the 'dire warnings' were for if we leave. They were right about the £ falling immediately. Yes, you may believe in NF but even if I agreed that leaving was the right thing my moral values would stop me voting for a charlatan. I would have to either vote for another party or spoil my paper. I really can't understand any intelligent moral person even countenancing voting for him. History will make them ashamed they did.

Day6 you missed the point! I am suggesting that fighting NF is a waste of time, they should be giving out positive messages instead. Of course some remain people have already made up their minds but that is completely irrelevant to my post. I'm sorry but I do find that some leavers either don't understand things or deliberately misread and misquote. It does make it harder to respect their views.
Mycat you have made my point, they 'haven't seen* because no one has pointed it out to them. We probably all know of things that have been paid for by the EU, laws which have benefited us etc but no one is shouting that from the rooftops so people don't know. NF is shouting soundbites which people are hearing and believing because they don't look below the surface.

joelsnan I don't know if you are correct or not but I prefer to see the bigger picture. I prefer the strong helping the weak, with restrictions or, to put it another way, family helping family. Lots of Poles came to the UK and worked hard and sent money home which went into their economy. Now many have gone back because their economy has grown and they have well paid work at home. Not all were manual workers, I had a senior accountant who spoke 4 languages. The result of their economy improving means we can sell more to them. Everyone wins.

LadyGracie you also have missed the point (see above). The people who have read it and understood all seem to be more thoughtful

I wonder how Farage, and others who sing the same 'democracy' song reconcile it with the democratic deficit in our own UK system? The House of Lords for instance?

LadyGracie. When Remain voters are told anything by Leavers that is worth opening their minds to they will consider it... Farage's empty invective is not worth considering.

What is the point of challenging NF and his supporters? They won't listen they are already fixed and it doesn't matter what they are told they have closed their minds

As have Remain voters I think you'll find.

Just heard there are a record number of EU citizens living and working in the U.K.!

I thought in this ‘hostile’ environment most had left!

Jennifer Eccles - I think you are wrong about the timing of the predictions of collapse. Osborne and co said that the economy, the pound and housing would crash after we left the EU, not that it would happen after the referendum.

Framilode
Is Spain a nett contributor or receiver of funds?
If it pays in far less than it receives back from the EU then if coyrse it is a benefit. However UK is a nett contributor and if not always has been so for a long while meaning that it receives less than it contributes. Maybe some of the monies paid in by UK taxpayers has contributed to the benefits that Spain enjoys.

GrandmaKT
Your assertion that UK benefits from EU funding, you may think this is the case however EU funds are nothing more than UK monies obtained from you and I through taxation which is then sent to the EU for a percentage to be creamed off for administration costs and then returned to us under the guise of EU funding. The majority of funding initiative applications have to be approved by the government of the country that will benefit.
All EU funding received by UK is only UK money being returned. We actually pay in much more than we receive back.

The EU has been conveniently blamed by successive governments for problems that have nothing to do with the EU to take the heat of our own governments. Easy just to say it's the fault of the EU and there's nothing we can do about it.

In Spain, where I lived, there were large placards for each EU funded project so people could actually see the benefits of membership. Not so here, we have always had a negative attitude towards Europe and act as if things were being forced on us when we have a vote and a veto.

Oh I know GrandmaKT I probably put that really badly but I know.

however I think lots of people who voted leave genuinely had concerns about immigration and conflated that with austerity.

You see what I mean? I don’t think the benefits of the EU have been properly broadcast that’s why the remain campaign was so bad and project fear disastrous.

But but but free Movement is in my view the issue focused on.,

Btw my cat is a Russian spy! That’s a fact

Mycatisahacker (love that name!). See this link for examples of EU funded and co-funded projects in the UK.
ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/business-funding/eu-funding/examples_en
Many of them of course account for the employment of thousands of people. Others are projects in social inclusion and themes that will improve the quality of life for all.
I do wonder if a UK government outside of the EU would have the time or money available to fund projects like this.

Thing is though that a lot of people who voted leave havnt seen lots of benefits from the EU.

Free movement being one of them and for most working class people their kids havnt a hope in hell of Erasmus! Or of getting good jobs abroad.

Years of austerity (not Eu doing) and free movement have caused massive issues not addressed for years and when asked the people gave the Eu a kicking.

And the remain campaign was so bloody awful

MaizieD

Good points

wealthy voters have spent a lot of money going to court to challenge the outcome

Well, Day6, the first court case, as I recall, was not to challenge the outcome but to ensure that the decision to invoke A50 was made, as is proper, by Parliament, not by the government. The key part of our constitution being that Parliament is sovereign, not the government.

The other notable court case was crowd funded; that was to determine if A50 could be unilaterally revoked by the UK. The court's decision has made no difference to the current situation, nor was it intended to challenge the outcome, merely to establish what we could do legally if we changed our minds about leaving within the A50 period.

Perhaps you'd like to give some concrete examples of cases brought by wealthy individuals to actually challenge the result of the referendum?

As for the rest of your post, like Farage's 'party', there's nothing to respond to.

Apart from this, of course:

Look to yourselves, Remainers.

What on earth does that mean?

the UK leave....

They won't listen they are already fixed and it doesn't matter what they are told they have closed their minds

But does that not apply to Remain voters too?

Correct me if I am wrong but Remain supporters have never accepted the result of the referendum, wealthy voters have spent a lot of money going to court to challenge the outcome and our own PM and parliament between them have kicked the Remain can don the road for three long years.

Now we have impasse and it was created by parliament and May's dreadful WA which is better for the EU than the UK.

She along with Remain politicians are not letting the EU leave the EU.

I'd say that indicates they are not listening.

The birth of the Brexit Party is down to Westminster - the elite who do not believe in democracy and have ignored, insulted and belittled Leave voters for three years.

Enough of the superior, sneering Remain stance. There is a fight back, and politicians are running scared.

I salute Farage. if nothing comes of the Brexit Party, at least he has made a stand on behalf of Leave voters.

It is the fastest growing party in the land and we have to hope, come the next general election, this third contender can smash the unworkable two party governmental system we have. This is because of a refusal to listen and instead to engage in a long held and vicious resentment of Leave voters.

Look to yourselves, Remainers. .

Yes I accept we haven't left yet, but those dire warnings were predicted to happen as soon as the Leave vote won, not after we actually leave (if we ever do of course!)

Farage as I see it is our only hope of properly leaving.

After all if Theresa May does a deal with Corbyn, then we will end up with a sort of homeopathic Brexit - watered down to such an extent that virtually none of the original matter remains.

By the way, I don't think the London property market is in danger of crashing, but prices are now correcting to more affordable levels which of course will help a lot more people get on the property ladder.

the 'experts' like the rest of us, do not possess a crystal ball,

Crystal balls have nothing to do with it. Experts have worked and studied in their field. They know what the outcomes of actions are most likely to be.

I wonder if all these non believers in experts take the same attitude with their doctors?. Or, even earlier, took them with their teachers who were passing on knowledge to them?

As to your examples, JenniferE, tthe economy would have crashed if the governor of the Bank of England hadn't taken prompt action to inject £billions into the economy when the pound plummeted. The housing market is not thriving, unemployment doesn't appear to be falling but as the figures count anyone who works 1 hour a week as 'employed', the gap between rich and poor is rising and people in work are needing to top up their incomes with benefits the picture isn't exactly rosy.

On the other hand, the experts who predicted that leaving the EU wouldn't be easy have been proved absolutely correct. It's not the 'fault' of malign Remainers, it's because it is a highly complex process which few, if any, of our politicians actually understood. Experts did, but they've been ignored.

Nonnie, I would just point out that the London housing market was well overdue for a sharp correction anyway. Never mind the 'prime' areas - when the price of a 2 bed flat in a non-smart, non-central area had gone from circa £250k to over half a million in around 6 years, something was going to give eventually.

I think what Nonnie is saying is not to try to foretell the future (and be accused of "project-fear" - type scaremongering), but instead to remind people of what benefits the EU has given us over the past 40 years.
I strongly agree that this should have been much more the focus in the referendum. There were so many examples of areas that had benefited from so much EU funding voting to leave.
Sadly, I think that ship may have now sailed. NF is being very clever and solely concentrating on one word - democracy. His standpoint is that the people's democratic vote has been ignored and is in danger of being overturned. Remain has to counteract this argument.

But Jennifer we haven't actually left so how could they have been proved wrong? The London housing market looks like it is crashing. The pound has fallen by 20% and the motor industry is leaving the country. I could go on but no point talking to closed minds.

However, should you have any information which would encourage me to change my mind I would love to hear it. There is just over a week to go and I am willing to listen. I have been asking this question for some time but no one has given me a helpful response.

easy I agree, that's why I am suggesting that the Remain parties learn from the referendum and instead give out positive messages.

In answer to your question Nonnie, the 'experts' like the rest of us, do not possess a crystal ball, so they are only able to guess what might happen when we leave.

Why are leavers reluctant to believe these so called 'experts'?

Possibly because they have been proved wrong time and time again since the referendum, with their dire predictions about the economy failing, the housing market crashing, unemployment rising etc.

None of these dire warnings proved to be correct did they?

What is the point of challenging NF and his supporters? They won't listen they are already fixed and it doesn't matter what they are told they have closed their minds.

Substitute TM and her and you have exactly the same result.
The difference is that Farage is attempting to honour the Referendum result, which May is not.