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I think the Remain parties have got it wrong

(56 Posts)
Nonnie Tue 14-May-19 13:23:56

What is the point of challenging NF and his supporters? They won't listen they are already fixed and it doesn't matter what they are told they have closed their minds.

I think that a better approach would be to tell people what they already have and make them grateful for that.a Tell them all the things they are going to lose if we leave. Tell All this bickering helps no one. There must be some people who are prepared to listen to common sense instead of all the Farage barrage.

Mycatisahacker Tue 14-May-19 14:02:42

It would be ideal Nonnie but I think project fear OTT is still in people’s minds and so it’s hard to really see the wood from the chaff.

Defiantly not celebs getting involved or politicians but maybe business leaders people know like Allan sugar ?? independent economists etc. And I mean independent so putting both sides no lies or fear just plain facts.

MaizieD Tue 14-May-19 14:36:51

Problem is, mycat that no-one is completely 'independent'. Everyone has their biases, though they might be unconscious. All good academics try to recognise their biases and work to overcome them, relying on intensive study of what is rather than what they would like 'it' to be. But, take someone like Prof. Duggan, Professor of EU law, who made several videos both before and after the referendum to explain the legal implications of leaving the EU. He was immediately decried by the Leavers because a) his area of expertise had 'EU' in the title and he had held the Jean Monet Chair for a time. Neither of which actually had any bearing on his knowledge of EU law but was enough for his expertise to be dismissed as 'biased'. The fact that he came down for remaining in the EU was dismissed for that reason. The fact that his judgement was based on his intimate knowledge of the EU law, acquired over many years of study counted for nothing.

The same will happen for any expert cited. If it's a business leader Leavers say that they just want to maintain the status quo because it benefits them personally. Years of experience and understanding of business issues count for nothing.

We've had expertise and experience from people from all walks of life telling us that leaving the EU is not a good idea but Leavers disregarded their message, just latched onto their judgement that it was better to remain and dismissed them.

Michael Gove's airy dismissal of 'experts' has much to answer for; it validated many people's vague feeling that 'experts' were invariably wrong about everything; that everything they said was mere 'opinion' and that their own (uninformed) opinion was just as good as the next man's.

I'm all for critical appraisal but outright dismissal is hard to overcome. There is no getting through to people who do this. No expert in the world has the slightest influence on them unless they agree with what the 'expert' is saying.

I'd recommend looking at the speeches of Ivan Rogers, former Permanent UK Representative to the EU. He does put both sides; as a civil servant it was his job to look at things from every angle. But he's just as disregarded as anyone else who has an intimate knowledge of the EU.

EllanVannin Tue 14-May-19 14:54:40

Martin Lewis gave the best description on leaving/remaining a few weeks back. He runs rings round the politicians who are clueless either way.
Surely it's the financial implications we should be looking at/studying as regards leaving rather than listening to the constant waffling of politicians who are there just for themselves and their own interests.

Nonnie Tue 14-May-19 15:57:57

What if it were all positive stuff: Your young person will still be free to study in The EU, Erasmus..... The EU has given us such and such employment protection. You can no longer be required to work XXX no of hours because the EU has protected you. This building was built because of EU funding and so on.

I agree that those who are not prepared to listen won't listen to an expert which always puzzles me. They would want an expert to perform their operation, repair their car, fix their heating, teach their children.

I just think that arguing with NF and complaining about other parties won't work. Showing the positives about the EU might just do it.

Happiyogi Tue 14-May-19 16:18:00

Nonnie, thanks for starting this thread.

It is beyond ridiculous that there has been no sensible discussion at a national level (I know, I ask too much!) either before the referendum, or in the ugly mess since, establishing what actual changes would be made to our lives in the short, medium and long term. People are braying for a concept that has not yet been defined. Lucky dip, anyone?

eazybee Tue 14-May-19 16:19:09

What is the point of challenging NF and his supporters? They won't listen they are already fixed and it doesn't matter what they are told they have closed their minds.

Substitute TM and her and you have exactly the same result.
The difference is that Farage is attempting to honour the Referendum result, which May is not.

JenniferEccles Tue 14-May-19 17:14:03

In answer to your question Nonnie, the 'experts' like the rest of us, do not possess a crystal ball, so they are only able to guess what might happen when we leave.

Why are leavers reluctant to believe these so called 'experts'?

Possibly because they have been proved wrong time and time again since the referendum, with their dire predictions about the economy failing, the housing market crashing, unemployment rising etc.

None of these dire warnings proved to be correct did they?

Nonnie Tue 14-May-19 17:22:03

But Jennifer we haven't actually left so how could they have been proved wrong? The London housing market looks like it is crashing. The pound has fallen by 20% and the motor industry is leaving the country. I could go on but no point talking to closed minds.

However, should you have any information which would encourage me to change my mind I would love to hear it. There is just over a week to go and I am willing to listen. I have been asking this question for some time but no one has given me a helpful response.

easy I agree, that's why I am suggesting that the Remain parties learn from the referendum and instead give out positive messages.

GrandmaKT Tue 14-May-19 17:27:18

I think what Nonnie is saying is not to try to foretell the future (and be accused of "project-fear" - type scaremongering), but instead to remind people of what benefits the EU has given us over the past 40 years.
I strongly agree that this should have been much more the focus in the referendum. There were so many examples of areas that had benefited from so much EU funding voting to leave.
Sadly, I think that ship may have now sailed. NF is being very clever and solely concentrating on one word - democracy. His standpoint is that the people's democratic vote has been ignored and is in danger of being overturned. Remain has to counteract this argument.

Witzend Tue 14-May-19 17:33:01

Nonnie, I would just point out that the London housing market was well overdue for a sharp correction anyway. Never mind the 'prime' areas - when the price of a 2 bed flat in a non-smart, non-central area had gone from circa £250k to over half a million in around 6 years, something was going to give eventually.

MaizieD Tue 14-May-19 17:36:24

the 'experts' like the rest of us, do not possess a crystal ball,

Crystal balls have nothing to do with it. Experts have worked and studied in their field. They know what the outcomes of actions are most likely to be.

I wonder if all these non believers in experts take the same attitude with their doctors?. Or, even earlier, took them with their teachers who were passing on knowledge to them?

As to your examples, JenniferE, tthe economy would have crashed if the governor of the Bank of England hadn't taken prompt action to inject £billions into the economy when the pound plummeted. The housing market is not thriving, unemployment doesn't appear to be falling but as the figures count anyone who works 1 hour a week as 'employed', the gap between rich and poor is rising and people in work are needing to top up their incomes with benefits the picture isn't exactly rosy.

On the other hand, the experts who predicted that leaving the EU wouldn't be easy have been proved absolutely correct. It's not the 'fault' of malign Remainers, it's because it is a highly complex process which few, if any, of our politicians actually understood. Experts did, but they've been ignored.

JenniferEccles Tue 14-May-19 17:36:52

Yes I accept we haven't left yet, but those dire warnings were predicted to happen as soon as the Leave vote won, not after we actually leave (if we ever do of course!)

Farage as I see it is our only hope of properly leaving.

After all if Theresa May does a deal with Corbyn, then we will end up with a sort of homeopathic Brexit - watered down to such an extent that virtually none of the original matter remains.

By the way, I don't think the London property market is in danger of crashing, but prices are now correcting to more affordable levels which of course will help a lot more people get on the property ladder.

Day6 Tue 14-May-19 17:39:21

They won't listen they are already fixed and it doesn't matter what they are told they have closed their minds

But does that not apply to Remain voters too?

Correct me if I am wrong but Remain supporters have never accepted the result of the referendum, wealthy voters have spent a lot of money going to court to challenge the outcome and our own PM and parliament between them have kicked the Remain can don the road for three long years.

Now we have impasse and it was created by parliament and May's dreadful WA which is better for the EU than the UK.

She along with Remain politicians are not letting the EU leave the EU.

I'd say that indicates they are not listening.

The birth of the Brexit Party is down to Westminster - the elite who do not believe in democracy and have ignored, insulted and belittled Leave voters for three years.

Enough of the superior, sneering Remain stance. There is a fight back, and politicians are running scared.

I salute Farage. if nothing comes of the Brexit Party, at least he has made a stand on behalf of Leave voters.

It is the fastest growing party in the land and we have to hope, come the next general election, this third contender can smash the unworkable two party governmental system we have. This is because of a refusal to listen and instead to engage in a long held and vicious resentment of Leave voters.

Look to yourselves, Remainers. .

Day6 Tue 14-May-19 17:40:00

the UK leave....

MaizieD Tue 14-May-19 18:02:54

wealthy voters have spent a lot of money going to court to challenge the outcome

Well, Day6, the first court case, as I recall, was not to challenge the outcome but to ensure that the decision to invoke A50 was made, as is proper, by Parliament, not by the government. The key part of our constitution being that Parliament is sovereign, not the government.

The other notable court case was crowd funded; that was to determine if A50 could be unilaterally revoked by the UK. The court's decision has made no difference to the current situation, nor was it intended to challenge the outcome, merely to establish what we could do legally if we changed our minds about leaving within the A50 period.

Perhaps you'd like to give some concrete examples of cases brought by wealthy individuals to actually challenge the result of the referendum?

As for the rest of your post, like Farage's 'party', there's nothing to respond to. sad

Apart from this, of course:

Look to yourselves, Remainers.

What on earth does that mean?

Mycatisahacker Tue 14-May-19 19:13:40


Good points

Mycatisahacker Tue 14-May-19 19:15:23

And the remain campaign was so bloody awful

Mycatisahacker Tue 14-May-19 19:24:32

Thing is though that a lot of people who voted leave havnt seen lots of benefits from the EU.

Free movement being one of them and for most working class people their kids havnt a hope in hell of Erasmus! Or of getting good jobs abroad.

Years of austerity (not Eu doing) and free movement have caused massive issues not addressed for years and when asked the people gave the Eu a kicking.

GrandmaKT Tue 14-May-19 20:41:21

Mycatisahacker (love that name!). See this link for examples of EU funded and co-funded projects in the UK.
Many of them of course account for the employment of thousands of people. Others are projects in social inclusion and themes that will improve the quality of life for all.
I do wonder if a UK government outside of the EU would have the time or money available to fund projects like this.

Mycatisahacker Tue 14-May-19 21:26:15

Oh I know GrandmaKT I probably put that really badly but I know.

however I think lots of people who voted leave genuinely had concerns about immigration and conflated that with austerity.

You see what I mean? I don’t think the benefits of the EU have been properly broadcast that’s why the remain campaign was so bad and project fear disastrous.

But but but free Movement is in my view the issue focused on.,

Btw my cat is a Russian spy! That’s a fact grin

Framilode Tue 14-May-19 21:37:54

The EU has been conveniently blamed by successive governments for problems that have nothing to do with the EU to take the heat of our own governments. Easy just to say it's the fault of the EU and there's nothing we can do about it.

In Spain, where I lived, there were large placards for each EU funded project so people could actually see the benefits of membership. Not so here, we have always had a negative attitude towards Europe and act as if things were being forced on us when we have a vote and a veto.

Joelsnan Tue 14-May-19 21:55:11

Your assertion that UK benefits from EU funding, you may think this is the case however EU funds are nothing more than UK monies obtained from you and I through taxation which is then sent to the EU for a percentage to be creamed off for administration costs and then returned to us under the guise of EU funding. The majority of funding initiative applications have to be approved by the government of the country that will benefit.
All EU funding received by UK is only UK money being returned. We actually pay in much more than we receive back.

Joelsnan Tue 14-May-19 22:00:44

Is Spain a nett contributor or receiver of funds?
If it pays in far less than it receives back from the EU then if coyrse it is a benefit. However UK is a nett contributor and if not always has been so for a long while meaning that it receives less than it contributes. Maybe some of the monies paid in by UK taxpayers has contributed to the benefits that Spain enjoys.

Dinahmo Tue 14-May-19 22:45:32

Jennifer Eccles - I think you are wrong about the timing of the predictions of collapse. Osborne and co said that the economy, the pound and housing would crash after we left the EU, not that it would happen after the referendum.