Labour anti-semitism

Bridgeit Sat 08-Jun-19 11:52:11
Well yes GG you can blame your lack of understanding on my inabilities if you wish.

But you have made no attempt to clarify. Why would you not do that if your opinion is valuable to you? You surely do not think that everyone can understand you all the time? I think you would be beginning to apply the word arrogant to me if I implied such a thing. This is becoming rather childish if you will not explain what you meant. I don't mind it that makes you think I am of lesser intelligence or whatever, but you could make the effort.

It is my belief that I have, if that is not clear to you it is because you have not or cannot understand my opinion,there isn’t a lot either of us can do about that.

GracesGranMk3 Thank you for your posts about the IHRA definition of anti-semitism and its lack of legal standing. I tried sometime ago to get a proper debate about this. About why it was accepted as it stands by the UK Parliament in spite of a recommendation by a sub-committee that it had problems and that additional information should be added-namely
We broadly accept the IHRA definition, but propose two additional clarifications to ensure that freedom of speech is maintained in the context of discourse about Israel and Palestine, without allowing antisemitism to permeate any debate. The definition should include the following statements:

It is not antisemitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
It is not antisemitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government’s policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent
We recommend that the IHRA definition, with our additional caveats, should be formally adopted by the UK Government, law enforcement agencies and all political parties, to assist them in determining whether or not an incident or discourse can be regarded as antisemitic.
Why this was never widely reported or why the additional caveats were never introduced remains a mystery.
Thans for the posts about alternative Jewish voices.

"Hence the need at timefor outside bodies to intervene & make judgements ref offence"

Are we talking about a "thought police" here? If someone says or does something illegal then it is right they should be held to account - but how can someone tell what someone else's intentions or thoughts are?

beckett I think we are making this debate too complicated and getting ourselves into knots.

The main premise is, even in a democratic country of free speech, if we say something about that is offensive to a majority of the population, then maybe we should refrain from saying it publicly.

If I say something about a community that offends the majority of that community, I will stop voicing it. I can have my own opinion, but I would prefer to be mindful of hurting my fellow citizens.

trueblue22 so if the majority of the populaion are fascist you shouldn't say anything because they might be offended?

trisher If it were I most likely would leave that country and say criticise from the outside.

GGMK3 I raised my family the way I was raised.

My Grandparents taught my parents - if you cannot say anything nice then do not say anything at all.

We repeated this to our children.

It is possible to hold strong opinions and voice them without being rude or nasty.

It is possible to disagree with people and their opinions without “mud slinging”.

Respect for others should be integral to the way we lead our lives.

So you would allow the community to remain but feel free to criticise them from outside? How does that work with criticism of Israel. I don't live there. Should I be free to criticise them?.

Looking at the problems & obscurely objectively, the countries which uphold appalling human suffering & cruelty can & do argue that it is their right, it is their country , their people their rules , thank goodness that the free world works towards change. A so called ‘intelligent debate ‘ would fall on deaf ears. We can only work together to gradually implement change.
We on GN cannot agree , what hope for the rest of the world.

Iam64 Sat 08-Jun-19 11:52:33
GracesganMk3 - you think I have 'muddled up all the ways people may choose to be offended together'.
I don't agree with you of course. I 'think' that you enjoy getting into pointless rows with posters who take a different view than you do.
I try to avoid making such critical comments about other people but I've had enough.

I didn't think it a pointless row. I thought we were talking about antisemitism and that is a very important discussion. I thought we were talking about whether it is reasonable to offend if people take offence just because we disagree with them. That isn't personal. I think it would be interesting to look back at where the personal remarks were coming from Iam.

Let me clarify. I do not have any reason to agree that Jeremy Corbyn or the Labour Party as a whole is anti-semitic so I do not agree with those who try to make out that case.

Some whose hold such an opinion often do so on the basis of tittle-tattle, rumour and sheer prejudice. So, do I think there has been a general rise in racism and religious prejudice? Yes. Do I think there is a rise in uneducated and thoughtless comment? Yes. Do I think some people use the wrong language when trying to explain what they mean? Yes. Do I think attacking Labour as if it was the spawn of the Devil helps; no.

I was happy to discuss the difficult subject of anti-semitism in general. This led to personal comments being made but that's okay until they are sent to me by PM.

Beckett Thank you for asking the question so clearly in your post of Sat 08-Jun-19 12:15:26. We have been left guessing an apparently that is my/our fault.

We can only ask Bridgit once again, what outside bodies? Although I do not think Bridgeit has an answer to give us.

Then we have a post saying "Looking at the problems & obscurely objectively ..." what the does that mean?

"The main premise is, even in a democratic country of free speech, if we say something about that is offensive to a majority of the population, then maybe we should refrain from saying it publicly." (22 Sat 08-Jun-19 12:24

That is a dictatorship of the majority trueblue. We seem to have lost the whole sense of democracy where the minority also have the right to free speech. That is appalling! How do you think progress has been made in the past?

Ignore the smiling emoticon. Not sure why it appeared.

We have wandered far from anti semetism in the Labour
Party , distraction yet again.

Doesn’t change a thing, there is anti semetism in the Labour
Party

GGMK3 I raised my family the way I was raised.
My Grandparents taught my parents - if you cannot say anything nice then do not say anything at all. (13 Sat 08-Jun-19 12:54:12)

I said nothing about how you or anyone else, personally raised your family GrannyGravy.

Outside bodies= the ghostly bodies lurking @ GN headquarters ,waiting to adjudicate warring ( wearying or waring) GNetters who may get out of control trying to police and dominate a thread towards their own way of posting.

I didn’t infer you did GGMK3, I was trying to make the point re responsibility that each of us have to think before we speak or act.

In my opinion (for what it’s worth) after reading various newspaper articles and watching social media “pists

Oops “posts” I feel that the Labour leader JC is anti-Semitic, and under his leadership it has been allowed to grow unchecked in the LP.

Grandad1943 Fri 07-Jun-19 20:52:39

" As I have stated previously in this thread racism, harassment and bullying surround all of us in every corner of our society. Therefore, for those who wish to see the above iradicated perhaps they would care to comment on the below report taken from the Daily Express in regard to the above problems in the Conservative Party."
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You also ironically said when the discussion is about the Labour Party and antisemitism this on this thread :-

Grandad1943 Wed 05-Jun-19 20:51:12i

To continually post on the above Issues in regard to only one political organisation and often one person in that organisation is to deny any reality in the situation.

In fact, it becomes rediculas attempted cheap political point scoring, which demeans what is a growing and very serious problem in Britain at this time."
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You keep giving the impression your posts concerning the Tory Party and accusations of Islamophobia are somehow never answered. WRONG. I have answered you on several threads , as have others.

POGS Thu 06-Jun-19 00:50:07
Grandad

" To continually post on the above Issues in regard to only one political organisation and often one person in that organisation is to deny any reality in the situation.

In fact, it becomes rediculas attempted cheap political point scoring, which demeans what is a growing and very serious problem in Britain at this time."
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Where your point falls flat on it's face is there was a thread called ' Islamophobia in the Conservative Party ' to name just one.

You are a prevalent poster against the Conservative Party and Conservative individual MP's on the ' 'copious ' anti Tory threads. Along with other posters who like yourself feel the Labour Party should be somehow be out of bounds for debate, ( a case of ' Do as I say not do as I do ) when the thread subject is the Labour Party I have to ask why you cannot accept ALL political parties are debatable on GN whether we as individuals like it or not.

Given antisemitism in the Labour Party has been discussed on GN for 3 years and it is as current an issue to date I think it warrants to be kept in focus . Islamophobia in the Tory Party equally if and when evidence is provided should be debated too. As for ' political point scoring ' that can take various forms .."
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Whether it be Antisemitism in the Labour Party or Islamophobia in the Tory Party it matters not a jot , it is simply WRONG.!

The difference is I see no poster defending the accusations of Islamophobia in the Tory Party if and when factual evidence is provided but over the years on GN the denial of Antisemitism in Labour by some posters has been astounding.

It is so easy when someone in the Labour Party makes a verbal attack on Jews to launch into an epistle on Israel.

Willsman ,last year after some Rabbis complained about anti semetism in the party , said some Jews were Trump fanatics, he was referred for training !, now he has decided
the Israeli embassy are behind the lies of anti semetism and some one in the party was working for the Embassy and the
68 Rabbis who lodge a complaint this year were working for the Embassy .

GrannyGravy13 a lot of people believe the world was really created in 7 days and fossils were planted by god to make us think and test our faith. It doesn't make it true. Did you listen to the two posts earlier GracesGranMk3 posted.2 Jewish people, one of whom has worked with JC both deny anti-semitism and she states unequivocally that JC is not anti-semitic. There may be anti-semitism in the LP but no more than is found in other organisations. It is so sad that this debate which is fuelled by the actions of Israel towards Palestinians should become an obsession whilst in other countries extreme right wing parties gain ground and flourish without sanction. And people in this country with connections to those parties wait to act.

Bridgeit Sat 08-Jun-19 11:29:24

"That is why at times outside ‘bodies’ need to establish if there was an intention to cause offence ."
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GracesGranMK3 Sat 08-Jun-19 11:35:59

"Which outside bodies and what sort of "offence" are we talking about here Bridgit? I would be very worried about any other body, other than parliament and the judiciary being able to impose their beliefs on others. That doesn't feel at all safe for society."
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May I be bold Bridgeit as I see GG MK3 has followed up your point and I note how the past few posts have followed a usual pattern.

GGMK 3

Perhaps an ' outside body ' could easily be thought of as The Equality and Human Rights Commission launching a formal investigation into Antisemitism in the Labour Party.

If you are still not ' understanding ' and want to see more examples happy to oblige.

So 2 Jews One who works with Corbyn both denied anti semetism.

Willsman work with Corbyn.

Corbyn has said anti semetism will be wiped out of the Labour Party