Labour anti-semitism

POGS Mon 01-Jul-19 20:17:23
Message withdrawn at poster's request
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It was ' withdrawn' by GNHQ because I quoted another posters words that was in breach of the guidelines. If I say I own it and happy to own what I post! [annoyed]

As for the ' mural' raising it's ugly head again this is a classic exmple of how the problem of antisemitism is festering when some see antisemitism in various forms but others don't. If the ' context' behind the mural is understood then it is obvious it is anti_semetic but that is my opinion.

What is another problem is referring to ' Free speach', 'opposing censureship', as if they hold the Trump card over antisemitism/Islamophobia /racism tropes and visual display.

There is a fine line between ' Freedom of expression and free speach. ' and ' incitement to hate, racism, islamoohobia and antisemitism.'

I will fess up I thought the context of the Boris Johnson article and his saying he understood why some people saw the burka as wearing a ' letter box/ bank robber' jibe was not Islamophobic because the ' context' behind his article was defending the right of Muslim women to indeed wear the burka. Had his article been against the wearing of the burka then the ' context' of the comment would indeed be on the verge of being Islamophobia. Others disagree obviously.

The mural ' context' however is outright in it's meaning and it is portraying Jewish characters as dominating, money men playing monopoly with well known images of nation States on a table which is held up by what I believe to be black slaves.

This was a good article at the time:-

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism-open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour

Interpretation and opinion are one and the same.

Or our opinion.

The artist was asked if he was portraying Jewish Bankers, he replied “No”

So we are thrown back to the individual interpretation of the artwork, just like so many in the past. Indeed some artwork has caused riots as a result of the interpretation of the art. But this does not make it inherently racist or sexist or making a particular statement.

It is our interpretation

Iam64 here is an opinion on the mural that says itis not anti-semitic.
guerillawire.org/politics/oh-all-right-lets-talk-about-that-mural-then/
I'll admit I was wrong there are 2 Jewish bankers.

The consensus is not always the truth Iam64. The bankers are named and recognisable. Old people have big noses. If you think portraying people with big noses is anti-semitic how is an artist to portray old people?
I've always had a big nose Annie and all our noses get bigger as we age. If you want to read about it
www.verywellhealth.com/how-your-nose-grows-with-age-2223746

trisher - I have read a number of references to the mural and the consensus is it's anti semitic. What's your problem with acknowledging that?
and no, I'm not "suggesting that when artists portray old people they should modify the size of their noses so that Jewish people aren't offended".
Can't you see what an offensive comment that is?

So Corbyn got it wrong ?, why apologise and say it was anti Semetic ? Did he lie, was he confused ?

Most old people have large noses,the last part of the body to
stop growing , is yours still growing trisher?

Why is it terrifying to oppose censorship Annie?
Iam64 Most old people have large noses and ears-they are the last parts of the body to stop growing. The bankers depicted in the mural were all identifiable and only one of them was Jewish. Are you suggesting that when artists portray old people they should modify the size of their noses so that Jewish people aren't offended?

Iam the wall mural was anti semetic and your post explains clearly why

Oppose censorship in all forms ? Terrifying thought

I did not say you were anti semetic, if the leader and his supporters can’t agree on what is or isn’t anti semetic it cannot be anything but a problem in the party

Art - the image referred to was painted on a wall near an area originally inhabited by a largely Jewish community. It depicted several people, drawn to fit the traditional view of Jewish men with large noses etc - bankers, whose wealth was built on the back of people of colour. There is certainly truth in the suggestion that much of the wealth of former colonial powers came from slavery. The link between Jewish people/Banking and oppression is anti semitic. It fits the anti semitic lies put out in the 1930's and throughout history.

Does it? Can you post anything I have said which is anti-semitic? The fact that someone thinks something is doesn't make it so. Mind you I still would oppose the censorship of art as I said only extremist regimes-fascist or communist have ever done this. I strongly oppose censorship in all forms.

Thank you for replying. It shows why anti semetism is such a problem in the party.

I know what Corbyn said Annie strangely enough I don't agree with him about everything and art is obviously one of those things. The mural is not anti-Semitic, was never intended to be anti-semitic and was in fact a commentary on the position of top bankers and their control of the population.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43523445

Annie I NEVER SLIPPED INTO SILENCE! I have always, and still, insist that, regardless of what was said by anyone, that mural was not intended to be anti-semitic and as a work of art actually even its intentions did not matter. It was (and still is because it exists on-line) a work of art. Art is only condemned and censored by authoritarian regimes and that is something which I have always, and will always oppose.

Unless labour supporters stop denying what is true anti semetism cannot be tackled.

That wall mural, we discussed it here, trisher you denied
it was anti semetic yet when Corbyn admitted it was , you remained silent .

When I said Yvette Cooper apologised for anti semetism in the party you dismissed it with ‘did she apologise to the
Palastinians ‘ .

trisher, I'm with you on the history of the LP and the Jewish community in Britain, who have traditionally been largely Labour voters. I struggle with your view that the problem now 'is people supporting the Palestinians find it virtually impossible to do so without "slipping into anti semitic stances" '. I don't understand how anyone can 'slip into anti semitic stances'.
I don't suggest and haven't seen anyone else posting here, suggest that anti semitism only exists in the LP. It's such a long standing piece of bigotry that it exists, like other forms of racism or faith hatred, in so many cultures and societies.
I understand and accept that many who are anti LP, especially some national newspapers, will exploit the concerns about anti semitism, use them as a stick to beat JC with. My major worry is why on earth the Labour leadership can't manage this issue more effectively. Simply saying its all a right wing conspiracy to bring down Jeremy won't wash.

Iam64. you said
^trisher - you express your belief that anti semitism 'will remain because you can't change people's opinions by throwing them out of a party you need to attack the roots that feed their beliefs'. I expect you're referring to the recognised concerns about the actions of the current Israeli government towards the Palestinians. I agree that needs to change, I haven't seen a single poster who would disagree with that.
My worry is that the 'roots that feed their beliefs' are the roots of anti semitism, rather than the roots in the conflict between Palestine and Israel (governments) The Jewish people have been subjected to pogroms for so long its hard to set a date but certainly since the Middle Ages they've been threatened with violence and death and driven from established communities.^

If the history of the Labour party were different I might be inclined to agree with you, but the labour party and its members have always fought the standard ideas that condemned Jews to suffer everywhere. It was the Labour party who stood with the Jews in Cable Street. The party has always challenged traditional anti-semitism. The problem now is that people supporting Palestinians find it virtually impossible to do so without slipping into anti-semitic stances. They then begin to question why more isn't being done and can then be easily seduced into conspiracy theories. Which is why I think only actions will fully alleviate the problem. Because if you really care about anti-semitism condemning it in the Labour party, implying that is the only place it exists and throwing people out the party really doesn't address the problem, just moves it elsewhere.

Be fair grandad1943 , it was six words , better than
senseless, meaningless epistles ?

Anniebach Quote [I hope I haven’t struck bullseye ?]End Quote

Err . Seems very much a senseless meaningless post.

I hope I haven’t struck bullseye ?

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