Project Fear- they said ...

Shame, shame on him and on all of them.

This is no project, it is the reality, 1933 style

anyone who lived the air raids during WW2 must be terrified - and sickened, by this cheap, nasty, disgusting use for Farage's rally. Just sick he is mad, and anyone who thinks the use of air raid sirens for his campaign, and rising right arm with glow stick - must be too.

youtu.be/eXk0tChqOUk

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?

Field work dates: 1 August 2016 - 10 June 2019

Looking over many months, back the majority opinion is constistently giving the answer "wrong" - the UK was wrong to vote to leave the EU.

That is as near as we can get to the current "will of the people" without having a people's vote.

whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/?removed

My dad lived through the war (and is still going, accumulating great grandchildren). He was a Conservative voter all of his life, and a Telegraph reader. He was so disgusted with the lies told by the leave campaign and by the Telegraph that he cancelled his subscription. I never thought I'd see that day. His mum - my granny - had all sorts of health problems that today would have been seen to by the NHS. And his dad was in Africa during the war. Both would have been sickened by what this country is becoming as a consequence of the rise of vicious populist politics and the breaking of bonds with Europe. We've made ourselves an international laughing stock.

That is a very moving video of a speech by Sheila Hancock, Jura. I think she is probably older than most GNetters, having lived through the war and I think I did see a survey which found that, unlike most over-sixties, her generation mostly voted Remain.

Back to the NHS: seen this?

And this?

According to the US Census Bureau, 28.5million people (8.8% of the population) had no health insurance at all, during 2017, a proportion broadly similar to the previous year. In UK terms, 8.8% of the population (66.04 million in 2017) is 5.8 million people. Being uninsured is associated with higher risk of mortality.

So those of you who welcome the "free trade" coming with Brexit and the sell off of the UK - are you happy for your friends and family to be amongst the uninsured, because we've sold the NHS to US private companies, in order to get a trade deal? Will you sell your house and other possessions to pay your hospital bills if you get sick? Are you ok that the problems we face now with the cost of paying for social care is extended to paying for health care?

I'm completely perplexed as to why people don't get the danger we're in here. If someone could just explain to me why they want to leave the EU, and what benefits it will bring, I'd be happy - or, well, maybe not happy, but I might understand it. What I don't understand is the motivation for leaving. Is it immigration? Is it "control". Is it some nebulous sense of "sovereignty"? Could someone explain the benefits, in practical terms? Has it become some sort of one-upmanship with the EU, now that the complications of leaving are exposed? Someone, please, explain in rational terms - that is, give me a good argument, because I'm completely lost. Certainly, none of the elite establishment leavers like Farage, Johnson, Raab etc have provided anything approximating an argument - just vague promises and jingoism.

Wonderfully said:

www.facebook.com/leedsforeurope/videos/198685417695714/

POGS you had a choice, you could take what I said at face value or you could decide to interpret it. I'm sorry you chose the latter.

Thanks White. I try very hard to remain polite despite have some very 'robust' thoughts

nonnie ?ever onwards?

Nonnie

We will have to beg to differ I'm afraid.

" I do hope POGS will come back to answer my response to her post but it doesn't usually happen from leavers."

That was not polite in my opinion, nor the time line but I guess we will have to accept that it is all a matter of being ' in the eye of the beholder.'

POGS bit harsh don't you think if you read my post? I was very polite. Sorry but as I don't monitor you or anyone else I didn't know whether you were pro or anti the EU. I thought your post sounded a bit anti EU but did not say you were.

Where did I suggest you respond quickly? I didn't. To paraphrase - you have joined the club which misinterprets (deliberately??) others' posts to fit their own agenda.

If you think I am one of the people referred to in your penultimate paragraph please give me an example because I haven't. However I have been on the receiving end of their disgusting rhetoric.

Definitely I was having an opinion, not much point posting on here without one! Do not accuse me of lying, I didn't. Be 'Frank' if you want to be (whoever he is) but why also be unpleasant?

I will try to remember you are a remainer but I "have a life beyond Gransnet" and don't keep a list of who supports what.

Nonnie Mon 10-Jun-19 12:21:00

" I do hope POGS will come back to answer my response to her post but it doesn't usually happen from leavers."
----

You have joined the club that expect posters to respond in hours. Have a tad more patience and show a little more respect for the fact posters are not at anyone's ' beck and call' and have a life beyond Gransnet!

Your post implied I was ' a Lever'

Why?

At best you were being opinionated at worst you were knowingly lying about me. To be Frank I care not which but to reiterate I voted to REMAIN in the EU Referendum.

I have been disgusted at the rhetoric against those who voted Leave and have often said so, usually resulting in some foolish poster accusing me of therefore being a Leaver.

I did for the sake of transparency say if there were to be another EU Referendum I may change my mind.

POGS I can't see a reason Japan would want such a trade deal with us as they have with the EU. I think they don't need to and will, like other countries, be able to drive a very hard bargain with us. Anyone selling cars to us will be able to add huge tariffs as the only ones we will be making will be Morgans!

Nonnie Sun 09-Jun-19 10:58:0

"POGS about the Japan/EU trade agreement. In a few years the tariff on Japanese cars will have gone completely. How can we expect to get a similar deal with Japan when we have nothing to bargain with?"
---
No idea. Not a question anyone can answer if they are being honest but no doubt some think they can declare they know.

Latest economic news - "The UK economy shrank 0.4 per cent in April as the country was gripped by Brexit paralysis following a proposed departure from the EU.
The latest fall was four times larger than economists had predicted and marked the second consecutive month of contraction for the UK’s economy after a 0.1 per cent drop in March.
Stockpiling of goods to deal with a disorderly Brexit on 29 March ground to a halt after deadline day was moved back to 31 October.
Figures had been boosted by stockpiling for manufacturers in particular during earlier months.
Industrial production declined by 2.7 per cent over the month and manufacturing slumped by 3.9 per cent." So what was that about project fear?

No, Nonnie and WWMk2 you have got it all wrong. Andrea Leadsom was assuring the interviewer on Radio 4 this morning that people who voted leave DID know that there could be job losses. Obviously, like me, you didn't take your reading glasses to the voting booth. Right then, all you Leave supporters, did you vote for job losses? Andrea said you did.

It’s as if leavers have all been subject to the same denial psychosis. It simply stops at that.

They seem clueless otherwise.

Caledonai14 I think we will have to give up on trying to understand because every time I ask on here or on Twitter the best I get back is soundbites. When I ask for elaboration there is no response.

I do hope POGS will come back to answer my response to her post but it doesn't usually happen from leavers.

Nonnie I'm with you in wondering what I am missing that has so many people vocalising support for No Deal etc.

The BBC's Question Time, in particular, fills me with horror. The audience bullish bias towards an uncertain future and "it'll be all right eventually" is a mystery.

As one commentator pointed out recently, we are going to have to spend a lot of time and money trying to get as good a trade deal (with anyone, but particularly the EU) as we have at the moment.

One good thing is that Scottish Labour have finally come out to back a decisive public vote once we know what is actually on offer.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48558355

Admittedly, this is probably because polls have shown failure to back a second EU referendum would lead to the complete disappearance of Scottish Labour MPs at the UK Parliament.

It's the first time I've known of Richard Leonard going against the fence-sitting tactics of Labour nationally, but it's a start. Kinda late in the day, though.

Is it just me or does anyone else spot a tad of bias in this report from the "Telegraph", a newspaper owned by the tax dodging Barclay brothers, who have enthusiastically promoted brexit (a great idea if you are a tax-dodging billionaire).

"A leading business lobbyist accused of being one of the architects of "Project Fear" during the EU referendum has been awarded a Damehood in the Queen's Birthday Honours list.

Dame Carolyn Fairbairn, the chief executive of the CBI, has been given the honour in recognition of her services to business.

She is described by the Government as an "outstanding advocate of British businesses".

During the referendum campaign, she was one of the most high-profile figures on the Remain side of the debate, warning that Brexit could cost up to a 1 million jobs and cause long term damage to the economy."

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/07/cbi-chief-spread-brexit-project-fear-given-damehood-queens-birthday/

Since becoming President Trump has repeatedly stated that he will do something about reducing the prices of pharmaceuticals in the US. Apparently, shortly before his UK trip, he had a meeting with the large pharma companies and agreed to leave them alone.

The Telegraph has a “piece” on the likelihood of USA imposing tariffs on German cars and the effect that this would/could have on Germany.

" leaders like Macmillan, George HW Bush or Clement Attlee had their formative experiences in fighting WWII, while Lyndon B Johnson, Bill Clinton, and John Major had a visceral experience of poverty. They knew in their bones that government mattered." But current leaders have no experience of hard times, either financially or in a national emergency like war.

Article in the ^New Statesman^ about the article in the ^Financial Times^ , which is behind a subscription.

POGS about the Japan/EU trade agreement. In a few years the tariff on Japanese cars will have gone completely. How can we expect to get a similar deal with Japan when we have nothing to bargain with?

For 3 years I was hoping that TM had some master plan up her sleeve which we didn't know about. How wrong could I be? What motivates these prospective PMs? Do they really assume the electorate is stupid? Are they right?

It seems so obvious to me, (and I've said it often enough!) the bargaining power of one small country has to be much less than that of a bigger group. Will the EU renegotiate? Why should they? Who wants a no deal? I must be missing something huge because I simply cannot understand why anyone wants this

What worries me is that some of the people running the country don't have a modicum of common sense.I often think that some of them are very naive , or lack emotional intelligence. Some have no idea about the worries of concerns of ordinary people such as my family. I even know some people who think that privatisation of the health service would improve it but can't grasp that would mean profit would override other considerations.