Labour wins Peterborough

Never chosen to follow them for EU citizens because of pressure from EU. There is still a discrimination between EU and non EU citizens purely based on their country of origin and I don't like it.

My niece is married to Turkish man. They live in Turkey as not allowed to live in UK unless can meet non EU criteria. She was told if she married EU citizen she they could both live here. That is pure discrimination based on country of origin.

I see what you are saying newnanny (Fri 07-Jun-19 11:57:08) and, in itself, you are obviously not wrong. But India has already said it would want Freedom of Movement from a deal and we are not applying the many rules we could be within the EU. That is our lazy and incompetent government, not the EU.

Yes, there need to be changes. I have already said that but you need to start with all the facts, not just a select few. just one part of the argument does incline it towards "Ministry of Truth" publishing.

More than anything you have to ask what sort of Britain you want in the future. One that dumps its friends and neighbours; the ones it fought along-side to hold back fascism or a Britain that works with them. The same outcome is possibly obtainable, give or take another long period of austerity if we go for Brexit, as all seem to agree it would be detrimental for some long time.

Whatever we do, someone somewhere will have the upper hand from time to time but in the EU it is often us. Whatever we do the excessively wealthy will continue to try and take money from the only source there is - the poor. Elizabeth Warren said, "capitalism without rules is theft". You may or may not agree with her but that is exactly what the ERG, Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, et al want. No rules capitalism. Your money is lost - no compensation. Your pension is stolen by the company you work for - no compensation. That is what they want - a form of gambling with markets. That is what has made them wealthy beyond need and they like the model.

Ug I stand to be corrected, but did the European elections not use proportional representation? - in which case, second choices come into play, and there is no way of knowing what these are in Peterborough, I believe?

I know many countries may try to get us to give their citizens preferential treatment but we can say no to India. I just think trading with whole of world with simple trade deals with any country that wants one with us is dumping our friends and neighbours. Applying a strict skills criteria for immigration is the best way to go. I just like fairness and hate discrimination of any sort. I don't like the if you trade with us you can't trade with them mentality, it smacks of the playground. I think we need to be more global citizens and embrace an optimistic trading future.

I meant to put NOT dumping our friends and neighbours.

Yes, I disagree with all enormous pensions for MEP's including Farage. I don't believe the large rewards are justified.

I'm afraid that you 'belief' doesn't make them unjustified, newnanny.

And we're not talking about Farage's pension (or the future BP MEP's pensions either). We;re talking about the fact that he has been drawing a very comfortable salary, plus expenses, from the EU for the last 20 years and has nothing at all to earn it. And the extreme likelihood that the BP MEPs intend to do exactly the same thing.

I suspect that you would be up in arms about a British MP, or peer, taking the money and doing nothing at all to 'earn' it.

As for the chlorinated chicken, it's not the chlorine that people object to, it's the reason for the chlorination. Which is that US chicken is produced in appallingly unsanitary conditions and the chlorine wash is an attempt to destroy the resulting high level of toxic bacteria they contain. Not terribly successfully, it seems as 1 in 6 Americans are likely to get food poisoning in a year. Whereas in the UK it is estimated that 1 million people per year (about 1 in 65) are likely to get food poisoning.

By my rough estimation 1 in 6 would be about just over 16% of the US population, whereas the UK's figure would be fewer than 2%.

Of course, under current EU regulations everyone in the UK, rich or poor, can be reasonably confident that the meat they eat is 'safe. Unregulated US meat is bound to be cheaper and so more likely to be bought by the poor. So, in effect you are saying that it's OK for poor people to be put at greater risk by eating it...

eazy you said "it is really rather pointless to waste time disputing," so why did you?

newnanny I don't think all leave voters are unpatriotic but I do think many of them do not realise all the implications.

We can trade with any country we wish but we cannot dictate the terms and will be in a very poor bargaining position if we have to go it alone. This has already been demonstrated by the EU negotiations where the EU held all the cards and we had little to bargain with. Most people recognise that giving D Trump power to dictate terms of any agreement would not be good for UK. We won't be able to cherry pick what we want, they will do the cherry picking.

Whether or not you like the EU people to come and live in the UK they are an economic gain to the UK in addition to doing the jobs we don't want to do. They take less out of the public purse than they put in which looks like a benefit to me.

Of course the EU is not perfect but on economic terms I am sure we are better out than in.

Thank you for the rational argument, it seems to be becoming a rare commodity from some of your fellow voters.

but we can say no to India.

Oh, for heaven's sake! If we say 'no' to India we don't get a deal... And the same will apply to other countries...

Whether or not you like the EU people to come and live in the UK they are an economic gain to the UK in addition to doing the jobs we don't want to do.

Is the fact that FOM means that any UK citizen can work and live freely anywhere in the EU 'unfair' as well?

Wasn't Peterborough Labour before this bi-election?

I would not have wanted the Brexit Party to win, but it is not an outstanding victory for Labour as they only just scraped in, last time narrowly scraping in and beating the Tory.

It looks as if Peterborough has become a marginal seat and who knows what will happen in future elections?

Maizie did you read that as if I thought it was a bad idea? If you did please read it again.

I don't think FOM is unfair at all, I'm all for it as it helps us all to understand each other and learn tolerance for the differences and, yes, there are differences.

Considering the Brexit party was only formed 8 weeks ago - 8 WEEKS! - they did extraordinarily well didn't they?

They came second, only losing by a few hundred votes, which for such a very new party is a fantastic achievement.

Labour won, but of course some of those who voted Labour also want to leave the EU but are lifelong loyal Labour supporters. If however the Lib Dems (who are now the Leave party) had won, then other conclusions could possibly have been drawn.

I think Nigel Farage, although disappointed, will still see coming second as a very good achievement for his brand new party.

Sorry, Nonnie, didn't mean to imply that you think that, because I know that you don't. I just thought it was a useful starting point for what I wanted to say. It was meant for people who make the 'unfair' argument against FOM.

You forget to add into your analysis, JE that some Leave voters might think that he's a slimy, lying toe rag who's not averse to playing the race card and will vote Labour (or Tory), despite Labour's ambivalent stance. Or perhaps they just prefer a party that has a manifesto to which they can be held..

I understand many of your concerns newnanny but surely it was fears of hordes of people from Turkey that caused many to vote for Brexit? Surely it was wanting to limit immigration, limit people coming to UK and claiming benefits which was the reason for many Brexit votes? I am not saying this was the reason for your vote, but surely you must see the difficulty? Coming out of the EU may stop free movement of EU citizens but open doors will certainly be a condition of any future trade deals we may do with India or anywhere else. This is a fact and we cannot just say no if we wish to do trade with others.

I think that description describes Corbyn quite accurately.

JE 8 weeks just shows that the saying 'a week in politics is a long time' and makes me think of other sayings like 'come and go, flash in the pan, rolling stone' etc. The frightening thing is that so many of my fellow voters can be so easily taken in by the sort of person you wouldn't buy a used car from! He likes to be seen as 'the bloke in the pub' and appeals to the lowest intellect, people who think you can get something on the cheap. Will they ever learn that 'there is no such thing as a free lunch' and 'you get what you pay for'. If we leave we are 'out of the frying pan and into the fire'. 'All it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing'

JE Why do you say the LibDems "are now the Leave party"? Rubbish. The LibDems are the party of Remain.

Anybody tell me any policies of the Brexit party......anything at all?

Lib Dems now the Leave Party? I have clearly been missing something for the last umpteen years. I have always voted for them as the pro-European, now the one unequivocally Remain party.

varian Apologies, you are right of course. No idea why I said the Lib Dems are a Leave party - of course they are Remain.

My fault for not reading properly what I had written ! I think I was too eager to get to my lunch!

We all make mistakes like that! Lunch was clearly ready and tempting.

Thanks MOnica. It was !

I voted Brexit Party in the EU Elections, I would NEVER vote for them in local or General Election.

My reason behind it was purely a protest vote against all 3 “normal” parties!!! With the hope that they would realise they need to sort themselves out, stop acting like pre-schoolers and either leave with some sort of deal or just flipping stay!!!

GG13 leaving hasn't worked in 3 years so can we just stay and get it all over and done with? All this guff about negotiating a better deal or leaving with no deal isn't going to work. EU clearly won't budge (why should they?) and Parliament won't agree a no deal. Obvious to all of us so why don't they simply revoke A50 or, better in my opinion, ask us whether we want the best deal they can get or stay with what we have. Oh I do wish there was a frustration emoticon.