Putin’s views

Don't quote me but I read on " barristers blog " on Twitter that many foreign journalists who visited Russia have " vanished " without a trace.
When my brother was working under-cover for the government at the time he wouldn't allow me to visit Russia.
Brother worked between GCHQ and his day-job.
He was once poisoned by an " agent " in the late 70's who'd travelled from South Africa.

Well I agree if you are saying this about the master of disinformation - Putin. He learned the art of twisting the the truth in the KGB. He was talking nonsense. It is blatantly untrue that liberal values are out-dated. It is the dominant and fundamental political philosophy underlying the world's democracies, especially in the western world. Also he somehow adds in the false association with the idea of migrants raping people and LGBT people.

You will know when liberalism is dead. It will be when you or you neighbour get marched away and locked up or killed because you belong to some newly invented outlawed minority. It is complacency like yours that will loose us our democracy.

How ridiculous ?

Firecracker123 (Fri 28-Jun-19 15:55:54)

So you now want communism?

Bloody hell! No wonder these extremists succeed.

Yes at least Trump puts America first pity out politicians don't do the same here .

GracesGran you always go over the top with everything I said I agree with a few points that's all.

Trump doesn’t need to say anything. He’s doing very nicely! Better long term prospects than Mrs. May for starters.

I predict he’ll get a second term in office too!
?

I had some sympathy with Theresa May having to shake hands with Putin and it was significant that she admonished him, not only for the Salisbury attack but also the destabilisation of other countries through cyber crimes and the spread of fake news. She didn't have to spell out that the two most disastrous consequenses of his interference were Brexit and Trump's Presidency. Trump said nothing.

I think you hit it on the head Riverwalk. We do need to admit that previous swings to extremes have caused those wanting "liberal" values to make mistakes while trying to pull back, but none of these is as big as the possible mistakes we now face. Elected dictators rarely do what they promise initially.

Those who think liberalism is bad seems to lack the knowledge (or not care) that crashing the economy of the country because you don't like freedom of movement is in the hammer and nut class and are happy to let this country be the nut.

We know why freedom of movement was part of the four pillars after the war in Europe but why not try and understand and make changes rather than act like lemmings.

There is rather more to liberalism than your so-called "PC" Firecraker.

Your freedom to think what you think and express it for one thing. I would be careful of throwing away all we have won without at least a little knowledge to back your cavalier attitude.

I think you're being overly optimistic there, GGMK2

I'm not sure about optimism Maizie; mine is very battered at the moment. I do tend to think very, very long term though

He's just a horrible man.

The liberal democracies, basically the model that The West is built on, are by far the richest and most successful of societies. There are flaws and no one system is perfect but I think we all know under which we'd prefer to live.

Our long-standing civil society, democracy, independent judiciary, free press, free-thinking, etc., have served served us well, far better than anything Putin has come up with.

I agree with him on a few points. I'm fed up with the Liberal pc brigade.

Of course he has a point !

Just watch Years and Years! Putin and Trump are two sides of the same coin, both populist, both preaching to and looking after their followers, both dismissing criticism as fake news.

but reason and fact will overcome this trend in the end

I think you're being overly optimistic there, GGMK2

Isn't he just repeating back all the populist rhetoric? He is just trying to undermine what he can't have, so nothing new there, surely.

A liberal society is a threat to both extremes, the alt-right and the far left. We have seen in the past that those with the loudest voices with the simplest credo are not intending the best for the whole of society but only working for their own glory.

It may take a while but reason and fact will overcome this trend in the end and Putin knows that. He is trying his luck at our lowest point. Sadly it will probably end with some bewildered populist followers too.

His argument is basically flawed as he is mixing fact with fiction (fake news as it is called these days). If you examine his statement eg ‘migrants can kill, plunder and rape with impunity’ you will see how flawed.

Unfortunately too many just accept what they read without passing it over a reality filter. Why? Because they cannot sort fact from fiction, or because it’s what they want to believe. Trump says the same about Mexicans, as another example, but statistics certainly do not back this up.

Extremist from the left (Putin and Communists) amd from the right (Trump and Fascism) have similar views and tactics for misleading and manipulating the gullible.

Their one driving force is self interest and staying in power. They do not have ‘the interests of the overwhelming majority of the population’ in mind.

Think for yourself and look at the facts.