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Panorama

(124 Posts)
WadesNan Thu 11-Jul-19 09:17:53

There are many Labour Party members on GN and I would be interested in their thoughts on last night's programme. Having grown up in a Labour supporting household I know the vast majority of Labour Party members are not racist or anti-semitic, however I do feel this programme raises questions about the upper echelon of the party.

If it had been one or two people making the allegations I could accept the denials being issued by the Labour Party that these are just "disaffected former employees". However, there were several people interviewed, some in very senior positions.

eazybee Thu 11-Jul-19 16:04:08

The BBC is biased?
Never!

paddyann Thu 11-Jul-19 16:48:19

I support a united Ireland Annie ..does that make me a terrorist supporter too ? I support the people of Palestine who suffer daily from Israeli policies .I'm not ANTI semetic just anti Israeli government,,I believe people HAD to talk to the IRA and the protestant/unionist para military or a solution would never have been found .I dont believe Corbyn is any of the things you call him certainly NOT marxist ,he's not even a real socialist in my book and I grew up in a real socialist family ..founder members of teh labour party .I am not a Corbyn supporter .I wouldn't vote for him ever or his party but those of you down south who dont have an alternative to the Tories HAVE to be told the truth about him and not a full volume of fables and myths as is currently happening .

Anniebach Thu 11-Jul-19 16:53:47

Did you attended memorial services for IRA members
Paddyann, do you look on Hamas as friends.

As for Ireland I support what the majority vote for if there is
A referendum.

Anti semetism is in the Labour Party.

Jabberwok Thu 11-Jul-19 17:23:01

The reunification of Ireland would certainly solve a few problems and if that's what the majority want in a referendum, if that ever happens, then that's absolutely fine, same with Scotland and Wales. No majority should ever be held against their will, including Brexit.

bmacca Thu 11-Jul-19 18:08:24

It is perfectly possible, reasonable and (I would say) almost certainly true - that you can believe there is a 'small number' of anti-Semitism cases in Labour and that these are abhorrent and must be vigorously and firmly dealt with. This has definitely improved since Jennie Formby took over as general secretary. Ian McNichol and his staff including Sam Matthews (who features in the Panorama programme) were not doing a good job hence the huge backlog.
However alongside this you also have some of the Progress/Labour First anti-Corbyn right wing critics (Watson, Hodge and Streeting are definitely in this category) who have tried to amplify the occurrences and scale of the problem to create mischief and division for their own endless anti-Corbyn agendas. These 2 positions are not contradictory - and can be held at the same time.

As regards the Panorama programme, I think the Jewish Dissident sums it up well:

Ten Facts About The Panorama Documentary
The bulk of the program's testimony was provided by disgruntled ex-employees of the Party, bureaucrats who were unable or unwilling to work with the new leadership, including Iain (now Lord) McNichol. Their claims were accepted uncritically by the interviewer.
Sound bytes delivered straight to camera by anonymous individuals peppered the program. They consisted of unsubstantiated allegations, were low on facts and high on emotional content (much 'tearing up' by the interviewees), and relied on appeals to emotion rather than verifiable data. Their allegations, in some cases verging on the absurd, were not investigated but, again, taken at face value.
So-called 'expert testimony' was provided by authors sympathetic to the paradigm of the New Antisemitism, which deliberately conflates antisemitism with anti-Zionism. These included Dave Rich (The Left's Jewish Problem) and Alan Johnson (Contemporary Left Anti-Semitism). Their motivations and assumptions went unchallenged, and no alternative perspective was put forward.
There was no input whatsoever from the thousands of Jewish Party members who support Jeremy, whose inclusion might have signaled at least some interest in journalistic balance, but would of course have risked damaging the program's pure propaganda value.
There was much recycling of old material - e.g. the Mear One mural and the Ken Livingstone fiasco - in the absence of any substantial new allegations.
There were several telling elisions, like the program's failure to mention that Jackie Walker - whose case was dealt with in a predictably appalling fashion by Ware - is herself Jewish. The Chakrabarti report was dismissed in a couple of brief asides.
Individuals like MP Louise Ellman were able to tell their apparently plausible stories without their own political affiliations being flagged up. Ellman has for many years been a key member of Labour Friends Of Israel.
A handful of leaked emails were made much of by John Ware, but in no case did these emails provide any evidence whatsoever of actual Labour Party antisemitism.
The program's underlying assumptions were that anti-Zionism equals antisemitism, and that Marxists have no place in the Labour Party. These assumptions determined both the tone and the content of the piece.
At no stage were any of the serious allegations of concrete antisemitism alleged by the anonymous participants, or indeed by anyone else, investigated by the program. This made a mockery of its claim to be a serious investigation and clearly revealed it for what it was - an ideologically motivated hatchet job with no concern for the truth.

bmacca Thu 11-Jul-19 18:10:47

Sorry if that’s a bit difficult to read. I’m not sure why the numbers 1 to 10 haven’t copied.

Anniebach Thu 11-Jul-19 19:16:58

Disgruntled ex employees ? No, very distressed ex employees who are brave enough to speak of their experiences

Calling them ‘disgruntled ex employees is the claim from
Labour HQ.

Devorgilla Thu 11-Jul-19 22:26:06

In Ireland the conversation is moving from talking of a United Ireland and moving instead to talking about a Union of Ireland. This takes a lot of the incendiary language out of the issue and gives a sense of two equal parts. Read James Nesbitt's interview in the Irish Times on this issue. Easily googled.
As for the Panorama programme, I find it hard to believe that all of these individuals are merely disgruntled employees. A thorough, and unbiased, investigation of their claims by the Party would surely have exposed the truth one way or another.

Grany Fri 12-Jul-19 08:29:34

bmacca Agree very one sided and biased.

trisher Fri 12-Jul-19 10:01:44

I would have thought it was perfectly possible for ex-employees to be both distressed and disgruntled.
Thanks for the summary bmacca I will try to find time to watch it, but won't expect balance.

Anniebach Fri 12-Jul-19 11:31:54

30 more whistleblowers have come forward

trisher Fri 12-Jul-19 15:59:19

Let's get this correct 30 whistleblowers have come forward to give evidence to the enquiry. These have been recruited since September last year by the JLM.

GrauntyHelen Fri 12-Jul-19 16:10:22

Iam no longer a member of the Labour Party being a Scot and a Nationalist but if Iwere I would probably be accussed of being antisemitic because Iam critical of the State of Israel! I dont see that as racist or antisemitic but many do So be it .

Anniebach Fri 12-Jul-19 16:15:44

Recruited trisher ? You know they didn’t want to speak but were persuaded?

lemongrove Fri 12-Jul-19 18:55:03

30 new whistle blowers Annie....crikey!

trisher Fri 12-Jul-19 19:10:23

They are described by JLM as being "secured" Annie. I thought recruited was a reasonable alternative. But they are not new whistleblowers twitter.com/JewishLabour/status/1149327973146923009

Anniebach Fri 12-Jul-19 19:13:24

lemon, baffling how they were recruited last September for
an enquiry which wasn’t announce until this year

trisher Fri 12-Jul-19 19:26:48

I've watched it. It does conflict anti-semitism and anti-Israel stances. I also found it odd (and slightly sinister given John Ware's previous record on making anti-Islamic documentaries) that the voice chosen to read the Labour Party statements was a woman with a faint Middle Eastern accent. In fact I thought it was a dreadful piece of work by someone who is not only biased but makes incredibly bad documentaries.

Anniebach Fri 12-Jul-19 19:45:50

Corbyn praised one of documentaries highly ,

paddyann Fri 12-Jul-19 19:49:15

Hamas are part of the elected govenment of Palestine Annie as to the IRA funeral sometimes its essential to show support to gain trust in these situations .Unless you were in the room when he was speaking to the IRA politcal or active side then you have no way of knowing what his reasons were .The Good friday agreement is under threat again what would you prefer ..that someone ANYONE even Corbyn speaks to the paramilitary in an effort to avoid the "troubles" reoccurring or or just sits back and watches while people die again

paddyann Fri 12-Jul-19 19:51:17

I do "get" that you have some kind of personal grudge against him maybe you could put persoanl feelings aside and see behind the media smokescreen

Anniebach Fri 12-Jul-19 20:00:58

paddyann I have no personal grudge against Corbyn, I base my opinions on what he says and does.

Attending a memorial service for an IRA member ? What other reason than to pay resepects ?

To invite members of the IRA to Westminster just weeks after the Brighton bombing ? Is this acceptable to you because conservatives were hurt ? People were grieving, shocked, ok because they were conservatives?

trisher Fri 12-Jul-19 20:40:40

Annie you post so much about the same thing so I wonder if Corbyn hadn't talked to the IRA and helped build the rapport that led to the Good Friday agreement would you be happier because bombs were still killing people?

Anniebach Fri 12-Jul-19 21:10:10

Corbyn had nothing to do with the Good Friday Agreement,

Just said to excuse his support for the IRA.

trisher Fri 12-Jul-19 21:16:40

But if nobody. had talked to them as you seem to want Annie there wouldn't be a Good Fridaay agreement and we would still have bombs.