More expert opinions to be ignored?

mcem, complaining on Gransnet isn’t going to reap any benefits for anyone, the downside is possible increased blood pressure for those who get too worked up. Unless you happen to be a member of the Conservative party, nothing anyone says or does will effect the outcome of the current situation, and since I’m not, I can’t see any point in getting too worked up about it. If you enjoy getting cross about it, that’s up to you.

Razzy: I shall take the experts view with a pinch of salt!

Will you also take the non-experts' view with a pinch of salt?

I heard a lady on the radio yesterday lamenting the 'fact' that the EU had banned the use of newspapers in British fish and chip shops. The sooner we leave, the better.

After Brexit, we will be saving £50,000,000 A DAY in dues paid to the EU for supposedly free trade!. We could also save ourselves £27,000,000 A DAY if we cut down the ridiculous Foreign Aid budget and just donated ad hoc to countries suffering unexpected natural disasters like tsunamis, and not to ones whose problems are caused by their own ineptitude.
I read recently that the Galileo project, which the EU spitefully kicked the UK off, is now in trouble without our expertise. I'm sure there's a few millions we could charge them there too for any future help we may give!

Maybe the 66bn cost to the UK re Brexit would have been a lot less if we weren't still dithering and had actually left.

Justme67 From your comments about borrowing I assume that you were either very fortunate to be given a house, or you rent because with your beliefs you wouldn't have taken out a mortgage. Or bought a car on HP.

Deficits derive for a number of reasons. The origin of ours resulted from crushing naval defeats of England by the French culminating in 1690. We needed to build a powerful navy but William 111 couldn't raise the money and so to induce subscriptions to the loan the subscribers were incorporated by the name of "The Governor and Company of the Bank of England". The £1.2 million was raised in 12 days and 1/2 was spent on rebuilding the navy. The remainder went to businesses such as ironworks (for nails) and agriculture (to provide for the quadrupled size of the navy). Thus the economy grew and with our navy were the most powerful country in the world at the end of the C18th and beginning of the C19th.

We have borrowed for wars ever since. The Bank of England issued stocks, known as gilts, and many people bought these, not just other banks. They known as a safe investment because it was assumed that the B of E wouldn't collapse. Some of you may be aware of War Loans. First issued in 1917 at 5% and later converted to a new loan at 3%.

The first time most of us became aware of the deficit was when the Tories came to power in 2010. Suddenly the politicians started banging on about the deficit and how bad it was for the country. The USA, France and Japan all had higher deficits than us but our had to be brought down. That's what lead to 10 years of austerity and the disatisfaction of many of the poorer people (and also tax cuts for the rich).

Now the Tories have found a new money tree and are promising an end to austerity and tax cuts. Where's the money going to come from?

Day6 The predictions of doom and gloom at the time of the referendum were not concerned with immediate effects but those that occur post Brexit. And of course we haven't got there yet.

Greta The use of newspapers as an outer wrapping ceased over a period of time for hygiene reasons. think about where many people read their newspaper and think about why it's not a good idea to help yourself from a bowl of peanuts on a bar (or Imperial Mints as I heard the other day)

Now of course, people get the news from their smartphones or tablets which are also contaminated but of little use for fish and chips.

maddy I am well aware that your patronising comment is true and don't expect my comments to be borne by a unicorn to the ear of the EU deity!
Note....comments not complaints.
Your point if valid renders not only Gransnet irrelevant, but also any discussion or philosophical argument.
What a very dull life we'd all live if we never read, responded to or put forward topics for discussion.

Ps perhaps you should check the irrelevance of words like 'complaint' and 'cross' in the context of rational discussion.

My kind of expert:

Lord King savaged the backstop, writing: 'It simply beggars belief that a government could be hell-bent on a deal that hands over 39 billion pounds while giving the EU both the right to impose laws on the U.K. indefinitely and a veto on ending this state of fiefdom.

“voters were told that they would decide Brexit, but most MPs are vehemently opposed to it.

He wrote: 'Britain is not facing an economic crisis. It is confronting a deep political crisis. 'Parliament has brought this on the country. It voted overwhelmingly to hold a referendum.

'The public were told they would decide. And the rules of the game were clear: fifty per cent of the vote plus one would settle the matter. 'The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time said unequivocally that Brexit meant leaving Europes single market and customs union.

'This was the Brexit that, after the referendum, both main political parties promised to deliver.'

Mervyn King 04.12.2018

Tell that to farmers, small businesses and residents who live on the NI border and are worried sick.

mcem

‘I am well aware that your patronising comment is true and don’t expect my comments to be borne by a unicorn to the ear of the EU deity.’

Well thank goodness for that. I was getting worried.

A direct response to mcem’s title thread. Re-read it and then this!!

‘You might remember hearing (or reading) yesterday that the Office for Budget Responsibility has finally done the sums over a no-deal Brexit. And, behold! It forecasts disaster. Billions more in debt. A year-long recession.

The Chancellor, Philip Hammond, said the OBR has proven that “even the most benign” version of a no-deal Brexit will inflict “a very significant” hit to the UK economy. Chuka Umunna said the OBR has shown a no-deal Brexit “will result in recession”.

But here’s the thing: there was no forecast. The OBR was quite explicit. It was not venturing an opinion about the effect of Brexit. It instead took an IMF scenario and said: let’s imagine that no-deal does trigger recession. What would then happen? It didn’t say that such a recession was inevitable, or even likely.

By presenting otherwise, Mr Hammond has his horror story.

But punch in some different economic assumptions and – presto! – the recession vanishes. The latest 
no-deal Brexit scenario from Oxford Economics does just that: a sharp slowdown, it says, but no recession.

Confused? You’re supposed to be. This is how you fool people with statistics in 2019.
?

Too few people in this country have a basic level of numeracy, let alone an understanding of economics and international trade.

Too many people were fooled in 2016.

How can you be an expert on something that might or might not happen, sounds like a crystal ball gazer. The biggest laugh is that this speculation is now called news, and it is read and believed, supposedly.

Varian do you mean too many people?

The fundamental fact that the leavers can't or won't understand is that we would never get as good a deal, let alone a better deal, from the EU if we left compared to the great deal we have as members.

Sorry Varian, that’s not a fact, it’s an opinion. There have been forecasts good and forecasts bad, it all depends on what is fed into the computer, after a computer is only as good as the person who puts in the data.

But anyway, don’t worry about it, worrying is not good for health, and all the worrying in the world will not change a thing.

The fundamental fact that remainers can't or wont understand is that many who voted for Brexit don't share your view that we have a good deal with the EU.

Many, myself included, gave our reasons in the aftermath of the referendum only to be derided as racist and stupid which is why I for one, am not prepared to go into my reasons again.

And what a lot of leavers don't understand is that, for a lot of us remainers it isn't just about trade deals.

It wasn't just about trade deals for a lot of leavers

It doesn't seem to have been about trade deals at all for many leavers. That was just a side issue. The fact that they're so unbothered now about any major hit to the UK economy and so blithely unaware of the realities of trade deal negotiations tells me, at least, that trade didn't come particularly high on their priorities list.

There are I'm sure a lot of business owners who voted for brexit and will be very concerned about a major hit to the UK economy, if it happens, as well as the issue of trade deal negotiations. So why do you assume otherwise Maizie?

Many small businesses only deal locally with local customers so it wouldn't occur to them that the effects of coming out of Europe would affect them. But of course it will. If there is an economic down turn those local customers will have less or no money to spend and that will affect local businesses as well those with international connections.

Remember Cornwall voted leave, despite being one of he biggest beneficiaries from EU funding because of its status as one of the poorer regions in the UK, plus benefitting from the milions, if not billions of £s poured into the farming industry.

I do not 'blame' anyone for the decisions they made in the referendum, whether they voted leave or stay. I blame the organisations on both sides for running truly appalling campaigns, they were mendacious, misleading and more concentrated on fighting each other than getting detailed and correct information out to voters to support their cause.

I doubt there were more than a handful of voters who were able to make an informed decision when they voted in the referendum. Most of us voted on an instinctive inclination to one side or another rather than a full and detailed knowledge and understanding of the issues involved, because there was no way of finding out what they were.