I am of the belief that one of two things will occur. Brexit will be cancelled or we will leave without a deal. There is no longer any interest by either side for compromise in between.
I think that a great many commentators have come to that conclusion.
The question is, which would be the most damaging for the UK?
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Johnson and Brexit
(1001 Posts)In his statement Johnson underlined his pledge to ditch the Irish backstop, and ramp up preparations for no deal, and to leave on 31st October regardless of what happens.
Mays withdrawal agreement has been binned, however in a phone call Juncker signalled the EU27s intention of sticking with the deal already negotiated by the British Government. This includes the backstop.
Juncker told Johnson that the EU would be prepared to alter the political declaration.
Ireland has declared itself as “alarmed”
Barnier signalled that Johnson’s rhetoric almost certainly meant that the U.K. was going into a GE.
Expect a huge public information campaign and a large level of spending in preparation for no deal.
There are various factions, who all want something different, so a situation has arisen, which is impossible to resolve. (Tue 06-Aug-19 08:50:29)
I'm not so sure that's the whole story, growstuff. I don't think the Leavers do want "something different" that is definable either by us or by them. What they want is something "other" and when they get it they will still want "something other" and so it goes on until we learn, once again, that there is no such thing as perfection but we can aim for a specific and definable goal and do our best to get it.
They are the people who talk a lot but do nothing as far as I can see. They do little to support their community but run-down councillors, MPs, etc., doing their best. They do little to learn about what they complain about - our democracy for example - but carry on complaining. They are selfish about what they want out of the state but criticise anyone who needs help. They criticise everything they do not understand; the education system; the NHS (why they can't have a same-day appointment with their 'own' doctor) but they are, as far as I can see, the permanently dissatisfied in our society.
Whatever the outcome, I can't see how that will change. It will always be someone else's fault, they will always know better than the expert and they will always be prepared to "speak their mind" wherever and whatever.
You've explained it better than I did, GracesGran.
It's ironic that they're the real Moaners, worshipping Moaner-in-Chief Farage.
I think we're in for a snap election timed to coincide with the deadline. Then they plan that we crash out without any bother to parliament.
I think you're right, DaisyMae, and I would hope that people would be appalled at how undemocratic that would be.
Presumably that's why Johnson has surrounded himself with a cabinet of hard-line, sycophantic Brexiters. It's also why we're seeing the Johnson/Cummings PR machine slagging off MPs (not helped by Momentum doing exactly the same thing on the other flank).
Johnson would go down in history as the worst PM ever for ignoring the sovereignty of parliament, dirty tricks, downright lies and probably breaking the UK apart.
Apparently, if Parliament is dissolved, it would be constitutional for a majority of MPs from all parties to go the Queen ask to form a government.
My personal preference would be for a national government to rip up Article 50, but failing that a call for a new referendum now that the situation is clearer. I would be prepared to accept that, but I want some clear non piffle-wiffle answers on issues such as the Irish border. Maybe we should send the cabinet to the Irish border to take questions.
Ps. I hope people have realised that Johnson's bribes (eg NHS funding which isn't new money) are being exposed for what they are.
Thankyou Growstuff and Grace’sGran for putting it far more succinctly and clearly that I can. The more I read the smug responses of Brexiters in these threads the less coherent I become.
I wrote to my MP at the weekend expressing my concerns regarding a no deal Brexit - specifically to us in Scotland. My MP Tory) responded immediately saying he would do all he could to prevent a no deal - if I find out that he hasn’t he will hear from me again!
From Polly Toynbee in the Guardian this morning. Cummings is a truly scary piece of work.
The majority in parliament against no deal is bigger and more resolute than ever,” says the shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer. The Tory rebels agree. They are aghast at the arrogant strutting of Cummings who is, says one, the best recruiting sergeant for rebellion on the Tory backbenches. The No 10 supremo’s careless contempt affronts many Tory MPs – and he is defiantly in contempt of parliament. The cabinet of sycophants, signed up to no deal in blood to get their jobs, are told to say nothing without permission from No 10 – that is, Cummings.
He orders myriad extra new special advisers to see that ministers say and do nothing without his consent, as he will “take no shit from ministers” who have “got to learn it’s in their self-interest to do what they are told”, the Sunday Times reports. “No one is indispensable” the cabinet has been told. “Don’t speak if you have nothing interesting to say,” Boris Johnson is said to have warned the 33 obedients round his table. How’s this for their powerless subservience? They do not discuss Brexit, which is left entirely to the “war cabinet” of six ministers in the Cobra room of the Cabinet Office, signalling the future chaos. The idea that Johnson, of all ill-disciplined politicians, can impose this omerta for long, let alone zip his own lips, is improbable. How much time before the cabinet of sheep start baaing? The insult to their amour propre already has many Tory MPs bristling at this ferocious upstart, only two weeks into the new regime.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/05/government-national-unity-no-deal-margaret-beckett-referendum
We were promised £350m a week for the NHS. Johnson has given us 5 weeks worth so far- and even that is money already given . Liars the lot of them.
It may not come to an election. It really has to start with a vote of no confidence which really needs to come from the main opposition party to stand a chance. Then sufficient Conservatives need to vote against their own party. JC is promising one but it does seem to have caveats. inews.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-no-confidence-vote-pm-boris-johnson-brexit/.
Then there are, I think, 14 days to form a new government. Although it is the end of that government the Prime Minister stays in place. If he can form a new government then he goes to the Queen. If, for instance, government of national unity can be formed the Queen has to take the advice of her PM. At the moment sounds are coming out of 10 Downing Street saying Johnson will simply not recommend any other leader of any other government and will just hold on to power. With such a short time span this could take us past Halloween.
I thought I was coherent too Overthehills and not at all smug in my last post?
Dominic Cummings’ first public intervention since taking up the Number 10 post came after he was criticised for insisting that MPs could not stop a hard exit from the EU by the 31 October deadline.
Former attorney-general and vocal opponent of Brexit, Dominic Grieve, said the claim displayed the former Vote Leave campaign chief's "characteristic arrogance and ignorance".
www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/105798/watch-boris-johnsons-top-adviser-hits-back
The unelected Dominic Cummings, who told Sky News: “I don’t think I am arrogant, I don’t know very much about very much." seems to be running the country. Is this how it should be in a parliamentary democracy?
Varian, I think we can only conclude that we no longer live in a democracy. As for Dominic Cummings, how can anybody respect a man like that?
I'm not sure there is anything left to frighten in us Varian, so Dominic Cummings running the country gets taken as read just the same as the chat on the radio about shortages and rationing. No one voted for it, but apparently, it is the "will of the people". Who knew? We are now a dictatorship in so many ways. By Christmas I expect us to be an actual dictatorship. ( I am now just waiting for some idiot to say it will all be over by Christmas. That's the next bit to "keep spirits up" I believe).
Snap Greta. Although not a very happy snap.
Just in case you've no idea who Dominic Cummings is, he's Boris Johnson's most senior special advisor (SPAD) who seems to be calling all the shots. Apparently he is considered "a genius" because of his great success in masterminding the deception which led to the result of the fraudulent referendum.
"Dominic Cummings, the latest self-appointed genius to run 10 Downing Street, is the most deluded of them all"
www.independent.co.uk/voices/dominic-cummings-brexit-boris-johnson-vote-leave-nigel-farage-a9045766.html
Varian, this Cummings chap, is he an expert? If so, we have no fear for he will not be believed by the Pollyanna brigade.
No Gill. He's got that one sorted with a Manuel "I know nuuuthing." (Varian put the right words above)
So everyone will love him!
If I didn't laugh I would cry GGMk3, sometimes do both at the same time especially when I read some of the deluded posts on here. Stiff upper lip chaps
Wasn’t ‘no deal’ Brexit meant to usher in a new golden age? ... “The Government has drawn up a secret list of big British employers that are considered to be most at risk of collapse as a result of a no deal Brexit and the construction and manufacturing sectors are expected to be the worst affected”. This is reported in the Times today. The government will be creating a fund to prop up those big companies worst affected. Can it get any madder?
BJ has only been in office for two weeks and already he has got things moving after three years of TM's dithering. He has appointed a good cabinet. MG in charge of Brexit planning, SJ imediately released much needed Brexit planning funds be released that Hopeless Hammond had refused to release, so now real planning can begin. I see 5500 new border staff are being appointed and trained ahead of Oct 31st. BJ is also kick starting economy by with new money for schools and hospitals. we are having a new budget ahead of Oct 31st to stimulate economy. I think BJ has done a lot in two weeks and disappointed many won't give him a chance.
"Brexit will harm UK research," says Nobel laureate Andre Geim who warned Boris Johnson "Don't take us for fools"
newnanny, you are perfect proof that image that is being spun by Johnson's handlers is being taken absolutely at face value.
Look at it a little more closely and it doesn't bear scrutiny.
The 'good' cabinet has been chosen for its loyalty to 'the message', not for any exceptional abilities that its members might have. The fact that two of them were sacked from May's cabinet for misdemeanours that in the past would have ensured that they never took office again is absolutely shocking and demonstrates a complete disregard for the conventions that have always applied to governments.
Gove, eh? This is the guy who proposed shutting the banks on 1st November to avoid a run on the pound? Perhaps he doesn't realise that the rest of the worlds banks will be trading as normal and that there will be plenty of dealing foreign exchange dealing happening. He can't protect the pound...
I think that you have the number of new border guards wrong, but however many are being recruited do you know that it takes three years to fully train a border guard? It's laughable to expect it to be done in 3 months.
I wouldn't put much money on a new budget before 31st October. Johnson will be very wary about initiating any Parliamentary business at all before then because his majority is so small and there are a considerable number of tory MPs ready to vote against his measures. I think no budget, just lots of promises...
But congratulations to Johnson's handlers. They're doing a great job at hoodwinking the Great British Public (well, some of them)
I'm baffled that anybody could consider the Johnson-appointed cabinet as "good".
I think I'll go off and do something useful before I write something I regret.
I would put money on the new border guards being commissioned from Capita or G4S (or similar), neither of whom are known for their standard of training, staff conditions or management.
Where on earth are there over 5000 people who would make good border guards?
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