Johnson and Brexit

growstuff Sun 01-Sep-19 15:33:47

"Can somebody please remind me when the UK had an honest democratic vote?"

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I stupidly thought we had a democratic vote at the time of the EU Referendum.

Then Parliament proved democracy was dead in the UK and our politicians have made that point continuously ever since.

And now people have changed their mind - surely someone who feels passionately about democracy would recognise that the holding of people to an advisory vote of three years ago by such an undemocratic cabinet is undemocratic? Especially given that the option we’re now faced with was never tabled?

Of course they do SirChenjin which is why the protests all over the country are being attended by many who voted Leave.

Referenda are not normally part of our Democratic Parliamentary system. They are only ever ADVISORY!

In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher quoted Clement Attlee that referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues" as Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler had exploited their use in the past.

House of Lords Library:
The first modern nationwide referendum in the UK was held in 1975 on the UK’s membership of the European Community. At the time, a number of concerns had been raised about the possibility of holding such referendums, with some politicians referring unfavourably to their previous use in other countries to bolster dictatorships. However, the Labour Government claimed the referendums were consistent with parliamentary sovereignty, and stated that it could not bind Parliament and that Parliament would have a role scrutinising any associated legislation.

Dictatorship by referendum

Did you overlook the word "honest" POGS?

I stupidly thought we had a democratic vote at the time of the EU Referendum

Well, you said it POGs.

Since then your 'follow the rules and fair play' detector has been strangely missing when it comes to cheating and illegality during the referendum campaign. When targeted adverts made it impossible for the 'other side' to respond to or refute them because they weren't out in the open for all to see. (and please don't start on about targeted adverts being perfectly normal; the hearing of, or seeing, all sides, by all people, in a referendum or election is essential to democracy. It's not quite the same process as selling stairlifts or shoes)

Being selective about which part of 'democracy' you approve of and which you don't seems to ask for your favourite word...begins with 'h'.

The government has withdrawn its offer of a meeting with all the Conservatives who signed the letter of concern to Johnson. The have offered a one to one with Phillip Hammond citing "diary pressure" as the reason for the change.

I think the belief in the first lie - that the government would carry out the vote - was the problem. The vote was advisory and it was always the case that this could be over-ridden if MPs saw that it was not best for the country. No government or PM could promise this against future knowledge.

It is the first duty of our elected representatives never ever to enact or support any measure which would inevitably damage our country.

The Leavers in parliament who have had their own way for the last three years and still chose to ignore all the expert evidence from their own civil servants, business leaders, independent economists, the leaders of all the professions, scientific advisors, security experts, trade experts,, experienced diplomats and legal experts, are guilty of dereliction of duty.

This may seem to some to be an extreme view but in my opinion these people are willfully intending to harm the UK and so their behaviour is nothing short of treacherous..

The Leavers in Parliament have certainly not had their own way over the last three years.....
And yes, your views are extreme ( fantasy land as well) Varian

Totally true Varian. It is always surprising how little the average person knows about our democratic system.

If we had another vote and remain won would the leavers accept it and stop whinging? Answer: no

Your dear queen is to be evacuated from the UK in case of civil unrest...not just by disgruntled remainers but by leavers who will suddenly realise the effect Brexit will have on their everyday lives .Well done chaps ,I've been desperate to see the back of Lizzie and co and you managed it! I couldn't get the link to copy on my new keyboard ,sorry .

If we had another vote and Leave won....would the Remainers accept it and stop whinging? Answer:no.

Actually, she is your dear Queen too ( however much you hate that fact.)

If we did have another vote, knowing everything we know now, and leave won I would certainly accept it.

Many, many Remainers do accept the vote in the referendum
As it stands.

I think we may well have got past the point of another vote. We don't know how the EU will respond but I think we would have to revoke article 50. We could then, if we chose, get our facts straight, learn what it would really mean and what it is possible to get from the EU and then have a vote on specific outcomes - if that is what we wanted.

I agree GG

The conclusion to an article I read yesterday [I'll try to do a link to the whole article]. Don't really want to believe in conspiracy theories but I find it hard not to believe this one

'To restate my initial summary:
Whatever its initial driving forces, Brexit is now essentially a coup pulled off by a network of Conservative Party politicians on behalf of tax-dodging tycoons and unscrupulous investors.
They have been systematically misleading the British public to hate the EU through a constant supply of anti-EU propaganda and lies. Their only concern for ‘taking back control’ is to rid UK businesses of EU tax laws, financial regulations and employees’ welfare rights.
Their immediate objective to bring about a no-deal Brexit. This is part of a deeper process of reshaping the whole of UK society as a low-tax, low-public-spending playground for predatory businessmen.
They are abusing democracy to create a plutocracy'

It's been obvious for some time.

Many of the people involved with Brexit have been connected with one of the think tanks in Tufton Street.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tufton_Street

Fortunately, none of them seem to like each other

Dont think so Lemon...I'm subject of no one .She may call herself queen but shes just a parasite and a waste of good air as far as I'm concerned ,hopefully they'll find somewhre far away and stay there .all of them

I'm no royalist but paddyann do you not accept she is a human being, who should be treated as humanely as anyone else? Do you feel the same about lots of other people (criminals for example) or do you consider only the royal family a waste of good air? I'd gladly become a republic but don't share your apparent hatred of people I don't know.

Until and unless another is appointed, she is the head of state of your nation, paddyann, whether you like it or not. The prime minister (or the first minister in Scotland), is not the head of state, they are first among equals of the ministers of the crown.