Johnson and Brexit

Do you mean why remainers perceive them as stupid and selfish growstuff? As I'm neither stupid or selfish it doesn't bother me if some leavers regard me in that way.

Thankfully there are remainers whose maturity enables them to take part in conversations about Brexit without resorting to personal and childish insults.

Yes, but also why leavers are always accusing remainers of perceiving them as stupid. I was very careful to point out that I don't think you are either, but there definitely seems to be a perception. Why?

I don't see why you think my post was personal and childish. I was merely curious about perceptions. Maybe you should think what I now think of you after your comment.

It was because you put your last comment in brackets growstuff, it gave me the impression that it was tongue in cheek, but if that was not your intention then I apologise for the miss understanding.

I did not say your post was personal and childish BTW I was referring to the perception that some remainers have of leavers being stupid and selfish, as personal and childish.

IMO the perceptions that some have on both sides is born out of anger and frustration. Some remainers are angry and frustrated that something they didn't want could happen, and some leavers are angry and frustrated that what they voted for, still hasn't happened.

PS I don't think that leavers are always accusing remainers of regarding them as stupid, but there have been numerous references to their lack of intelligence here on GN, since the referendum result.

I disagree with you. I have seen plenty of examples of GN leavers accusing remainers of acting superior and saying they are stupid. In happens on other social network sites as well.

It's true that leavers insult remainers and vice versa and it would appear you agree with me.

Often I don't post something about Brexit, because I know I could be accused of Project Fear or saying based on "experts". I've spent a lot of time trying to understand why people voted leave and I will confess that I can see a little of why they did, but I still think it was a very wrong decision.

I can understand some of the accusations which are hurled at Remainers (some). I was wondering whether those who voted leave understand why they're accused of being stupid and selfish. They're not random accusations, but based on something. Could it possible be some of the posts they make?

If that's the case, why do you think that leavers give an impression of being unintelligent?

I haven't seen numerous references to lack of intelligence - I do think there's frustration that the leavers don't seem to know what they voted for beyond the meaningless 'we're taking back control'. I can't imagine putting my signature to something which would/could affect my pension, income, ability to move about, access education, the NHS, legal system and every other aspect of my life without wanting to know a wee bit about what I was actually getting in return. Any questionning of that decision making process seems to be met with 'you think we're all stupid' or 'remoaners' or 'doom mongers'.

questioning

I agree SirChenjin it seem a very careless assessment of our future. That wouldn't be so bad if it was only their future but for every leave vote there is a person being careless of two other people's futures. We should never have allowed the status quo to be changed by a simple majority.

I agree. There should be a minimum of 60% of the vote share in referendums to shift a position imo, but we're now left with a great chasm of uncertainty across all areas of our lives which will continue for some years to come as a result.

We seem to be on the same wavelength. I've seen some comments about Brexit being stupid because that's what many people genuinely think it is, but I've seen numerous comments by leavers accusing remainers calling them stupid/unintelligent.

I will confess that I sometimes see comments which could be interpreted as Project Fear and I cringe a little. I'm not entirely without self-awareness. I was just wondering if those who moan about being perceived as stupid ever step back and wonder why people think that (allegedly) and how what they write could reinforce the misconception.

Just received this from a Facebook friend …

Folk of a certain age might remember Irving Janis and his seminal work on GroupThink to explain such things as the Bay of Pigs fiasco...

“I use the term groupthink as a quick and easy way to refer to the mode of thinking that persons engage in when concurrence-seeking becomes so dominant in a cohesive ingroup that it tends to override realistic appraisal of alternative courses of action. Groupthink is a term of the same order as the words in the newspeak vocabulary George Orwell used in his dismaying world of 1984. In that context, groupthink takes on an invidious connotation. Exactly such a connotation is intended, since the term refers to a deterioration in mental efficiency, reality testing and moral judgments as a result of group pressures.”

I honestly think that when insults are directed at a person or group of people who hold a different point of view, its a lack of respect for that different view.

I'm sure since the referendum there have been questionable posts made from both sides when it comes to Brexit and yes growstuff I do agree that insults have been made by both leavers and remainers.

Maybe the way a post is written gives the impression to some that the poster is lacking in intelligance or maybe it's the content. S/he voted leave; they must be stupid. S/he voted remain; they must be stupid.

GG's post "for every leave vote there is a person being careless of two other people's future". I thought long and hard about my decision to vote leave, there was nothing careless about my decision. Mr. S. put the same amount of thought into his decision to vote remain.

There's nothing to be gained by trying to take the moral high ground based on whether or not you voted for Brexit.
Although we're not allowed any contact with our GC that doesn't mean we're not concerned about what the future may hold for them.

IMO the future is brighter out of the EU, for us, our AC and our GC.

IMO the future is brighter out of the EU, for us, our AC and our GC

What tangible benefits do you think there will be as a result of leaving the EU? I'm not trying to be confontational - I'm genuinely interested. I'm thinking of the 'big' things - our ability to move between countries for work, access to education, jobs, pension rights, access to healthcare, human rights, that sort of thing. What does all look like like once we've left the EU that means a brighter future? And when do you see that brighter future happening?

Smileless- it depends surely if we are talking about mere 'differences' of opinion/view- or facts, as explained clearly by experts with huge knowledge and experience.

There you go again! I'm not trying to take the moral high ground.

Maybe you would be so kind as to explain why you think the future will be brighter. After all, at least half the country disagrees with you.

Because our legal system is so intertwined with the EU, on our departure nothing will immediately change. If, however there are changes that we as a country wish to make, we'll be able to do so without requiring permission from the EU. For me, that is how it should be and is a tangible benefit.

Despite the issues being faced by our NHS and welfare state, it is still considered by some to be the envy of the world. It was established long before we joined the Common Market which then evolved into the EU so, EU membership has not given us access to healthcare; we already had it.

Likewise access to education in the UK, pension rights and human rights are not because of our membership of the EU. Being in existence prior to our membership there's no reason to assume why any of the aforementioned should suffer once we leave. We were able to establish these without EU membership so will be able to maintain them without the EU's 'support'.

In fact leaving the EU will not affect our rights under the ECHR (European Convention of Human Rights) as this comes from the council of Europe and not the EU.

We should not IMO forget that these institutions, even if they've been improved due to our membership of the EU, are not in existence because of it.

The EU is becoming more and more federalised leaving us with at best less sovereignty and autonomy, at worse none of either as the EU becomes increasingly autocratic.

I accept that there are some problems to solve with regard to the movement between countries which will probably require visas but these are not as onerous as some would have us believe. We spent 10 years frequently travelling to the USA which required an ESTA and visiting our DS in Australia requires a visa.

Finally, there are concerns of massive corruption in the EU believed by some to be illustrated by the fact that the EU's accounts have not been approved for the last 20 years by the EU's chief auditor, in respect of around 100 billion of expenditures (Prof. David Blake 26.10.2018 'Briefings for Brexit').

If there is any substance to these concerns, then no longer being a member of a corrupt organisation is definitely a tangible benefit.

I don't know when the brighter future will happen, it will take time but I see that brighter future beginning when we leave.

^while 89 per cent believed most MPs were ignoring the wishes of voters to pursue their own agenda on Brexit.”^
I totally agree with that statement Urmonstongran as many, many millions of voters are grievously let down by the MPs pursuing the agenda of leaving the EU without any consideration at all for those of us who do not wish to leave and are very concerned about the future economic and social impact on this country.. So much for democracy eh?
I for one am looking forward to parliament sitting again, maybe then Johnson and his merry men will be called out on their fake promises, unicorns and lies which so many on here are being taken in by.

There are experts on both sides of the debate jura with knowledge and expertise.

No, there you go again growstuff if you read my post again you'll see my comment about taking the moral high ground was in reference toGG's post about the carelessness of leave voters.

Our legal system (systems actually, they vary across the UK) are independent to an extent, but there are EU laws which affect us and a Court which we have access to. I wonder which ones you think we'll be better off without?

Re the NHS. How will coming out of the EU improve things like access to staff, medicines, training, education, sharing of resources and so on?

When I said access to education I meant across the EU. How will that be improved for students wishing to study abroad? How will research be shared in a way that it will be improved under this brighter future? How will our pension investments and rights be improved?

Corruption is rife across the world and so anyone who believes that trade deals with China, the middle east and the US will bring us into contact with less corrupt governing bodies is in for a disappointment.

I'm afraid I'm still not seeing this brighter future with so many unanswered questions.

Not sure how any of you feel about the Adam Smith Institute.

But this is an interesting article that answers, and debunks, some of the reasons Remainers use to enforce their side of the whole sorry mess.

Of course there are positives to being in the EU as well as negatives. Which hopefully we all appreciate.

But some of the scare mongering is just that ... scare mongering.

And some people scare easier than others.

www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/ten-bad-arguments-for-staying-in-the-eu

But Minniemoo, the article is from January 2016!
We have learnt a thing or two since then. I could not see any reference to the Irish backstop. Could you?

Latest: The Guardian just now -

Amber Rudd has said she believes the risks of a no-deal Brexit are no more than a challenge that can be countered by government action, going back on her previous assessment in which she said it would cause “generational damage” to the UK.

If I were to do a Google search on 'reasons to stay in the EU' I'd find plenty to balance that Adam Smith article. What I wouldn't do is make snide comments about people being easily scared of significant unknowns which many experts are predicting won't bring about a much brighter future, nor will I call anyone who believes in such a future 'unintelligent'.

I'll continue to ask leavers what they think will happen post Brexit to make our lives better though because they've put their name to great unkowns and they must have some idea of what's coming, and I'm genuinely curious.