US Beef

crystaltipps I have no argument about what you say in your post of 18.09, and overall I do not think the gap between our two attitudes is much different. We both want a kinder more environmentally sensitive agriculture that can make a contribute to climate change mitigation and adaptation, while producing plentiful healthy food (a quote from a Soil Association publication, Spring 2019.).

Rosecarmel, I'm quite a veggy already.

Nobody can live without harming some other life form. But vegetarians do a lot less harm to each other and other life than heavy eaters of animal flesh.

It was phosphate that causes algae blooms, some from agriculture but also from detergents used industrially and domestically.

Beef and Lamb that is mainly grass fed is better for the environment that cultivating crops, that is because cultivation actually releases carbon from the soil, whereas permanent grass actually stores carbon. Traditional mixed farming does both, some grazing, some crops but farming has become increasingly specialized, ie: all dairy, all cereals etc in drive to become efficient.

The recent UN report did recognize this but got misreported. So grazing livestock is good and should be encouraged, as it stores carbon just like trees, cultivation should be avoided because it releases carbon.

Alexa, what you expressed comes across as prejudice- Our planet is currently in the grips of division- It doesn't appear to me that more of same will bring about necessary changes-

If the global population turned to solely plant based diets not only would the soil quickly become depleted but the runoff would be so great that it likely would cause a catastrophic shortage of drinking water-

Personally, I think vegetarians release more gas than meat eaters- Should the global population turn to a solely plant based diet it's likely they'd release more gas than the global population of cattle-

rosecarmel, your assumptions are wrong. Please consider the findings of the government's independent advisory body on sustainability, the Sustainable Development Commission:

www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/dec/11/eat-less-meat-dairy-diet

I don't know that my assumptions are incorrect any more than others projections, especially those that do not consider the impact that growing more crops would have on our water sources- More crops = more water needed for irrigation = more fertilizer leaching into water sources = more algae blooms = increasingly less safe water to drink-j

I agree that something has to give in the area of animal production and consumption- On a grand scale- But not so grand that it becomes too restrictive and borders on prohibition- Because if that were to happen I think more people would hunt wild animals than they already do and perhaps to the point of extinction-

I believe our global environment is in dire straits but few things I read sound like sensible remedies- They read more like personal preferences than actual plans- And not very well thought out at all ..

Maybe totally unrelated .. One autumn I happened upon an abandoned orchard that I later discovered hadn't been managed by anyone other than mother nature for decades- I ate one of the apples that fell from the tree and kept chilled in a clear pool of water beneath its gnarled branches- When I bit into it .. It was magic- Will my grandchildren experience similar?

Don’t believe anything the Guardian publishes read the actual report, which you can’t because it is 9 yrs old.

Grass fed Beef yes, but remember Dairy is also mainly grass fed, replace that with Soya milk and you actually increase the carbon emissions, albeit in the US or Brazil.

Rosecarmel mentioned irrigation the big problem is cotton, which needs a lot of water. In Australia they are actually pumping major rivers dry and in Russia the Aral Sea has almost gone and even the Caspian is shrinking fast, that’s is scary.

Davidhs, true, however it doesn't seem right either to use man made fibres instead as they break down into tiny bits that get into stomachs and lungs. We need to be very very fugal and stop buying so much. Or at least recycle from charity shops.

Rosecarmel, you assume there would be 'more crops' and that's where you are wrong. There would be less land used for crops without those grown to feed animals - even if the whole world were vegan, with the additional land for that, there would still be land to spare. That's how truly wasteful the present livestock industry is!

David, yes, that's out of date (the message is nothing new) so read the IPCC reports if you'd prefer:

www.ipcc.ch/

or a summary:

www.energylivenews.com/2019/08/08/eat-less-meat-to-help-tackle-climate-change-says-un/?fbclid=IwAR0_lLeEUiXsI2uNs8P2D6oIAv1kR7Pvt3YPUv8yx0iIolAFWcsTYAAA3Hs

Still, the message is clear - to reduce meat and dairy consumption (quite easy, I believe, as both are unnecessary additions to a diet).

Hatty, you're correct- Crops grown for feed for livestock would be reduced- But at the same time there would be an uptick in nutrients introduced to the environment for the growing of additional vegetables and fruit-

Certainly, imagining a meatless, dairy-less world is a vegans dream- Equal to that of any other agenda that suppresses others practices and preferences, impacting those most vulnerable - Eradication isn't without risk-

Any philosophy or belief that doesn't seriously consider all life forms can't be taken seriously either-

Why do reports stressing the need to eat less meat always have pictures of cattle on grass? Sustainable cattle raising? It's the high intensity indoor and cattle lot beef that's the problem, not grass raised.

That's true NfkDumpling. It seems that farming pictures always show happy content animals in fresh green fields. I wonder why? Seeing them crammed together trying to reach a trough isn't quite so appealing. What can be labelled as 'grass fed' in the US is concerning:

www.naturalgrocers.com/article/your-grass-fed-beef-truly-grass-fed

Because behind them are a team of vegetarian/vegan zealots,(and I mean a specific small group, not the majority of vegetarians and vegans.).

In the current issue of the New Scientist, one of these, George Monbiot, answers a question about cattle and their environmental impact, entirely in the terms of what intensive raise cattle on food lots consume. He ends by extolling soya protein as a replacement food. Raising cattle on grass onland not suitable for crops and the importance of animal husbandry in maintaining some of our most precious wildlife habitats is never mentioned.

In this discussion I cannot recommend often enough the report produced by the IDDRI in Paris. For those who think the reading of this report is too much for them, here is a summary of its findings and references also to the EAT-Lancet report produced earlier this year. www.agricology.co.uk/iddri-report-ten-years-agroecology-europe, eatforum.org/content/uploads/2019/01/EAT-Lancet_Commission_Summary_Report.pdf .

The conclusions of both are similar, that changes in our eating patterns to a more plant based eating pattern with more dependence on extensively reared sources of meat shows that a fully agro-ecological Europe, free from synthetic inputs and based on the redeployment of natural grasslands and the extension of agro-ecological infrastructures (hedges, trees, ponds, stony habitats), could sustainably feed 530 million Europeans by 2050.

I'm not sure that's true. I have a vegan friend, who's always sending me pictures of pigs in crates or lined up for the slaughter house, male chicks being gassed or hens in overcrowded conditions.

PS. I agree with you about grass-raised cattle. Maybe I should find out more about a totally meat free world, but my current feeling is that we could all survive with eating less meat and I'm willing to pay for meat raised in better conditions. I'm also quite a heavy dairy-consumer, so what would happen to the males?

Thanks for the link, MOnika. I'll read it after I've had brekkie.

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At a personal level, those advocating the move from meat and animal product free diets completely fail to take into account the problems of people with food allergies.

Many food allergies are plant based and if you have already voluntarily restricted your diet by excluding all animal based products and then are allergic to soy and all nuts, both listed in the top ten allergens, then you are going to be limited to a very restricted diet, with a problem getting sufficient proteon.

I said at the start that this aspect of the issue is personal, a member of my family has been diagnosed with an auto-immune disease, In the last few years they have developed allergies, to soya, nuts, fresh fruits and several other plant based foods, and needs to carry an epipen allthe time because their reactions can be severe.

Exactly how could someone with those allergies eat a balanced vegan diet? As it is because they have few allergies to animal-based foods, dairy, eggs, fish, meat, they eat a varied, nutritionally balanced and enjoyable range of foods..

I appreciate other people have allergies to animal based foods, but very few people are going to have allergies that extend extensively across all main protein foods, whether animal or plant based.

As a matter of interest, do you know what percentage of people have serious food allergies?

I don't have any food allergies, as far as I know, but I do have other health problems, which are affected by what I eat.

I read your link and I think I already eat more or less as suggested, although I probably eat too much dairy, and am perfectly well eating that way.

With reference to the OP, I certainly don't want to fill myself with antibiotics and growth hormones via eating beef or any other meat and I don't suppose many others do either, if they really knew what they're eating.

Monica, I disagree. I'm vegetarian, one of my daughters is vegan and a granddaughter has milk and soy allergies. There is no problem at all with protein on a vegetable-based diet. The only supplement considered sometimes necessary for vegans is B12 (derived from seaweed). We're all a lot healthier than the average for our ages!

Hetty please stop posting blatantly commercial links, of course Dorset meat say they are best they are selling it!

Apart from being vegetarian/vegan, do you have an otherwise healthy lifestyle?

I'm not disputing your overall health nor that many people have a very unhealthy diet. However, in my experience, veggies and vegans also tend to take care of their health in other ways too.

BTW Seaweed is not considered a good source of Vitamin B12.

veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/