US Beef

I obviously don’t think everyone will be vegetarian overnight but I think more and more of us should move to a plant based diet, and those who wish can include meat as an occasional extra. Most meat bought in supermarkets is industrially produced, the grass fed beef you prefer is a very small % of the market and certainly wouldn’t feed everyone. The U.K. does not currently feed all its population, as 60% of our food in imported, much of arable farming is for animal feed , which would be much more efficiently used to produce food for human consumption.

We must agree to differ. The reference you give only deals with industrially produced meat, not grass raised beef.

My support is for the more holistic report produced by the IDDRI (referred to several times above) which concludes that while we need to move to a more plant based diet with a move away from grain fed pigs and chicken. Grazing cattle on pasture preserves some of the worlds most important natural environments and that agroecological farming, including animal husbandry can help to lock carbon in the soil and reduce agricultural greenhouse emissions by 40%.

I would be quite happy with that.

Perhaps Crystal you could answer my request on the previous page for information on how the UK would manage to feed us all if we all were vegetarian as you would like us to be.

Countries can do as many trade deals as they like but no one can make anybody buy anything they don't want. Please, support British farmers and industries while we still have them.

theconversation.com/five-ways-the-meat-on-your-plate-is-killing-the-planet-76128

You might be interested in this M0nica

By the way I was not patronising you and if you took my post that way, I apologise, but you seemed to be ignoring the fact that I have always written against the rearing of animals on feed ltos on animal welfare grounds.

What is the evidence that all meat production produces more emissions than all transport put together?

Are you referring to industrial meat production or animals grazed and finished on land only suitable for pasture? As I understand cattle raised on entirely on natural pasture generate far fewer emissions than industrially raised cattle.

As cattle are so damaging to the environment, would you get rid of all domesticated animals and return it to the wild? Wouldn't the wild cattle pigs and sheep that would then roam this pasture produce as many emissions as the domesticated variety?

Thank you M for the patronage, I have read all the messages thank you. That argument doesn’t apply to the intensive testing of cattle in the USA in huge industrial pens, deforestation to provide land to grow crops merely to feed these animals, which would feed 10x more humans, and the unnatural and cruel practices involved in producing your tasty meal. Meat production is more environmentally damaging than all forms of transport put together.

crystaltipps, this goes back to the start of this discussion, much farmland is not suitable for arable crops and well suited to pasture animals on extensive grass fed only systems. This an efficient use of land and provides a rich concentrated form of protein that contributes to the well being of the individuals that eat it and makes for pleasurable and tasty meals.

Now go to the top of page 1 and read the following 9 pages until you arrive back here.

Thanks, MOnika. Very informative.

But not eating meat does much less harm to the environment. no one is saying any cultivation perfect.

A dramatic picture, but I suspect that my suggestion is more likely.

You had better stop buying and eating all those vegetables, whose cultivation is the cause of the bloom on the lakes and the poisoning of the dogs, lots of wild life must die as well, as a result of drinking the water or swimming in it.

Of course if the vegetables are organic, the source of the nitrates that make the fruit and veg so juicy and delicious will the slurry and muck made by the animals, which is then spread on the fields to feed the crop and leaches into the water that way. If they are not organic then the fertilisers are made from petro-chemicals. You are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Vegetarian or omnivore, the mere fact that we are born and live, means we contaminate the environment, one way or another. It is a closed system.

Is this a regular occurrence? Does it happen here all the time?. How many dogs die on a daily basis? Bet it’s nothing like the number of chickens, cows etc. How do we know this is caused by lettuce growing? I grow my own so no dogs died in my sandwich.

I think high nitrate values in the lake cause the algae to replicate very fast causing the blooms.

The nitrates arrive in the lake from the nitrates that are spread on fields to encourage plant growth, It then rains or the crop is watered and the water seeps through the soil and into lakes and streams, leaching the nitrates out of the soil and into streams and rivers that feed the lake.

This provides the high nitrate levels that feed the algae. presumably the dogs then swim in the lake - it is the sort of thing dogs do. Hey presto, the algae finds its way into their mouths and they are poisoned.

That’s the most bizarre thing ever think of all those dogs dying next time you eat a lettuce. They must be herded into tiny pens and forced to drink contaminated water then die a horrible death before we even get to eat a tomato. Well we might as well serve those dogs up in a sandwich - why waste a good dead body. Well that’s got to beat millions of chickens being crushed to death on a daily basis, and cows prodded with electric spikes and pigs castrated without anaesthetic just so you can eat a bit of their decaying flesh.

What does it have to do with vegetarians?

My understanding is that these dogs died after swimming in algae-infested water. I don't think it has anything to do with cows or growing vegetables.

crystaltipps, they probably drink it from puddles or streams that run off from vegetable fields when they are watered..

I’m confused about dogs dying in contaminated water. Are dogs forced to swim in contaminated water in order to grow vegetables? That’s a new one.

I object to cattle been fed predominantly corn, soya and other crops they would not normally eat. In intensive cattle rearing. all the literature I have read, point to animals having digestive and health problems because of the extent of their diet that come from these unsuitable products.

How about vegetarians think about the dogs that died shortly after swimming in contaminated water the next time they bite into lettuce and leafy vegetables- Hummm?

Stop eating vegetables and fruit- Who says that? Despite the horrific impact growing them has had on the planet, nobody suggests people should "stop eating" them-

Total double standard-

Beef has an unbelievable footprint: it requires 28 times more land and 11 times more water than pork or chicken, with five times more carbon emissions. The huge industrial beef farms are incredibly cruel and unnecessary. Not eating meat is far more effective at cutting your carbon footprint than a bit of recycling or cutting out flying. Next time you eat a chicken or steak - this caused a sentient creature to die and you don’t need it to live.

Monica here is your quote, and it sounds to me that you object to feeding corn to cattle.

“To begin with cattle in industrial farms being fattened for market are fed corn, soy and derivatives, but cattle are ruminant animals, whose natural diet is grass based and whose digestion is not adapted to eat grain, yet all these safety and welfare standards do not ban the feeding of corn to cattle.”

The reality is that most cattle receive some extra high energy feed mixed with a mostly forage diet, the ruminant digestive system is quite adaptable but does need some fiber, if forage is in short supply nutrition can be made up by other feed.

There is much we agree on and I am pleased about that

This is a little off point, but I’m curious. In a vegetarian world what will Welsh sheep farmers and other upland farmers do when there are no sheep or livestock? I assume the land will be forested where possible?

What will graze down the pastures which so many of our wildflowers and birds need? In fact will there be pastures if so much land has to be put over to veg growing? How will the soil cope without animal muck - much of the fens is suffering from lack of substance being returned to the earth.

Is there a publication on how the British countryside in particular will look and cope with only arable farms? My knowledge of farming is extremely limited so I’d really like to know more.