Democracy - help me out here!

Democracy should mean that every voice is heard (although that's problematic with 66 million voices), but it doesn't mean that everything people say will be acted on.

Strictly speaking, majorities will always have their way, which is why Scotland (and Wales, NI and many of the regions) will always lose out. That's why I will argue until the cows come home that democracy in itself isn't sacrosanct.

Feel free, jura.

Lord Sumption has this to say about democracy:

“We will not recognise the end of democracy if it comes. Advanced democracies are not overthrown. There are no tanks on the streets, no sudden catastrophes, no brash dictators or braying mobs. Instead, their institutions are imperceptibly drained of everything that once made them democratic . . .
The rhetoric of democracy will be unchanged, but it will be meaningless. And the fault will be ours.”

I'm not sure when he wrote that, but one can see it happening before our eyes with the empty rhetoric such as "will of the people" and the games being played to force a No Deal Brexit, despite the sovereignty of Parliament. We have seen our civil service and judiciary being criticised and undermined. No, we won't see people dragged off to the Tower or public executions, but we really are witnessing and living through genuine attacks on the democratic systems we have.

paddyann

"pogs thats not true"
-

Well it is to me.!

And, yes, the fault will be ours (or at least some of us).

thanks growstuff, and great last post too.

growstuff, lord Sumption's quote is from May 2019.
Food for thought here:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/democracy-is-in-the-dock-we-need-to-defend-it-5sx6sw7kd

When a country has a press which criticises the judiciary and calls them traitors and publishes photographs and names of said judges we are in a bad way. I expect that there will be more of the same when Gina Miller gets back into court, she is one brave woman. Democracy and the rule of law applies to all, not just to those who voted to leave the EU

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I'm sure you're aware that the British SOLD their fishing quotas to foreign fishermen. The person who represented the UK on the EU Fisheries Committee. Maybe if he'd have ever attended more than one of 42 meetings (rather than just collecting the money), British fishermen would have been better off. It was TV chef, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, who went to the top of the EU to argue the case about throwing back good fish and got the policy reversed.

This is the person (Farage) who has done more to bring about Brexit than anybody else. He's in it for himself. His hypocrisy over fishing just leaves me speechless.

I really don't understand why anybody would want to make such a leap into the dark.

Thank you, Greta. I looked him up. He's not exactly a leftie radical (lol) and I think he knows what he's talking about.

Here is some information about UK fishing. Significantly, it is the UK government which is responsible for allocating quotas, many of which have gone to foreign companies.

www.richardcorbett.org.uk/fishing/

Farage lied through his teeth about fishing. He was in a position to represent the UK, but did nothing. Why would he? It's another thing he could moan about.

but so many swallowed the lies, hook, line and sinker -

but now they DO know- but will not admit they have been lied to, for some bizarre and destructive reasons

That would make a good PR slogan!

For a democracy to function properly, everybody has to access to and a thorough understanding of the facts. Obviously, there will be differing opinions. For example, some people will think that the better off should pay more taxes to pay for the least well off to have access to good healthcare. Some people will disagree, especially if it means they will pay more taxes. That's understandable and it's up to those who believe in a fully funded healthcare system to make a case. I get that.

What I cannot accept is blatant lying and sidestepping accepted procedures. Unfortunately, it makes these people "attractive" to those who feel let down by current systems. The Brexit lot knew that. Few of them will actually benefit from Brexit, but they whipped up support from people who have, quite frankly, been conned. They were supported by the popular press and used, as evidence, Conservative policies, which had neglected them for years. Their stick in trade is to blame somebody - in this case the EU was the scapegoat. People blamed the EU for failures of its own government.

Brexiters have been remarkably successful in persuading people to vote to make themselves worse off in every sense. Loird Sumption is right. It is the people themselves (the ones who voted to leave) who should be blamed.

*stock in trade (typo)

Another example of hypocrisy by somebody who criticises the EU and the "elite" - in this case from the unelected Dominic Cummings.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/10/dominic-cummings-owns-farm-got-eu-subsidy

This is the man who "advised" VoteLeave and is currently pulling Boris Johnson's strings.

Just who is "taking back control"? Not you or I, that's for sure.

growstuff
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

Brilliant

Sorry; been away and have only skimmed through this so may have missed something but they're now talking about closing down parliament AND the banks [I think]. And people still think it's being done in the name of democracy....

Another scandal involving Arron Banks who channelled dubious funds to subvert our democracy in 2016

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7345467/Arron-Banks-faces-probe-diamond-smuggling-South-Africa.html

Remember those promises?

twitter.com/Youth4ia/status/1158425832769171457?s=09

Jillybird "means everyone who voted "out" was stupid or uneducated or unable to see the wood for the trees." I don't think anyone has suggested that 'everyone' did but I do believe some did.

I think that every time an expert comes "up with a set of figures to give a scenario of what would happen in each case." they are ridiculed. I have read so much about the likely outcome and think that if everyone took note there would be a huge backlash.

I know a lot of people say "I don't want a United States of Europe with its own peacekeeping force" so please can you tell me what would be wrong with that? We would still have control over our armed forces despite having commitments to the EU force.

growstuff the rich do pay more taxes. It was only about a week ago we heard that the top 1% of earners pay about, was it 30%? There were 40+% of people who don't pay any tax at all. I'm sure someone will give the accurate figures. I'm not in either bracket!

We are in this mess because people choose to complain about things rather than see the benefits. Of course the EU has faults but that is not the most important thing. We should be looking at whether the UK is better out or in which many seem to have missed because of all the things they were told were wrong with the EU. Facts should be known.

Yes, I know they pay more taxes. The point I was trying to make is that people disagree about how solutions should be found, even if the nature of the problem is agreed.

There are certainly people who think that the wealthy should pay less tax and that people should pay more for their own healthcare.