Democracy - help me out here!

Research has confirmed the powerful influence of the press.

After the Hillsborough disaster when The Sun abused fans from Merseyside, there was a very effective boycott of The Sun, which had long been Eurosceptic. Many former Sun readers switched to The Mirror which is much more pro-EU.

Researchers have found that, as a result, Liverpool had far fewer Leave voters in 2016 than comparable areas. They concluded that, over many years, newspaper readership was a significant factor in forming opinion.

www.ft.com/content/ffdb6e8c-c5c8-11e9-a8e9-296ca66511c9?segmentid=acee4131-99c2-09d3-a635-873e61754ec6#o-header-drawer

I can't read the link because it's behind a paywall, but I'd be interested in the research methodology. Most of the big northern cities (Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle) voted Remain. All those cities have big universities and students make up a a high percentage of the voters. Central Liverpool (like central Manchester) has a high number of young, urban professionals, who were more likely to vote Remain.

PS. Not saying that the Sun still isn't unpopular on Merseyside.

A narrow view of what democracy means is responsible for having got the country into such a mess in the first place.

1 The idea that a single vote was all it takes to be "democratic".

2 A right-wing government appointed because we have a leader of a political party, who won a "democratic" election amongst fewer than 100,000 party members.

Grandad1943, it appears that I owe you an apology as I assumed, due to your words, that you were a supporter of momentum. So I apologise

trisher

" POGS you make statements but can't back them up. You make accusations that are largely unfounded and purely based on personal prejudice. I don't call that reasoned argument but I will withdraw any remarks you consider personal if you can back any of the allegations you constantly make with real evidence."
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POGS

" Which statements and ALLEGATIONS, not personal views or opinions, have I made that you want evidence too?
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trisher

"POGS I can't keep asking. You refused before and instead asked if I watched political programmes. You really can't accuse me of playing the man not the ball after that.
I did look on-line and the last newspaper article mentioning Momentum was on 4th August."
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trisher

I refute your personal comments entirely.

I gave you every opportunity to prove your point by asking which Statements and Allegations you found I ' could not back up', were 'based on personal prejudice'.

You came up with ' nothing'. You came up with nothing that would allow me to ' back any allegation with real evidence'.

Therefore kindly do as you said in your post :-
" I will withdraw any remarks you consider personal if you can back any of the allegations you constantly make with real evidence."

I’ve just returned to this debate as I’ve been on holiday and family have kept me busy, but I’m the one who posted the original question Democracy- Help Me Out Here!. I asked the question in the light of the current chaos as I believe that Brexit has shown up how inadequate our political system is. I find the intransigence of Brexit down to a badly worded and poorly constructed referendum primarily brought about to solve, the Cameron government thought, once and for all a problem within the Conservative party; not the govt or the majority of Parliament; namely the presence of a tenacious group within the Conservative Party who have divided their party for over 20 years because of their dislike of the EU. We now find ourselves in the polarised position that in reality means no matter what happens, leave or remain; 50% of the population will be disappointed, frustrated and angry! I am not happy with our current govt and disappointed with our current opposition; I’m not being partisan here! So, in the light of the discussions about Momentum; can we examine the role of the ERG? A group that exercises considerable influence over the leadership and exist within the Conservative Party? So how does that work then?

Theresa May was clearly terrified of the ERG. She chose to ignore, not only those who want to Remain, but also those who wanted to leave but still stay in the customs union and/or the single market.

That is why she set out her ridiculous red lines and put herself in an impossible position by saying we must retain frictionless trade and there could border on the island of Ireland and yet no distinction between NI and GB.

Anyone who wants to respect the Good Friday Agreement and avoid violence in Ireland, and also does not want to see the breakup of the United Kingdom, can see that it is simple impossible to simultaneously satisfy all these aims unless we stay in the single market and customs union, or preferable remain full members of the EU.

This tiny extreme wing of the Tory Party, which is now in power has become indistinguishable from the Brexit Party. It is not just all the other parties who have been ignored but all the more reasonable Conservatives. We now have had a coup by an extreme unelected minority.

I hope people are connecting up the dots tho. Parliament isn’t standing against the people, they are standing against a ginger group who has taken over the party! As for Ireland and the GFA they talk about open borders which are vital they remain open, but also under the GF agreement NI citizens and SI citizens have the right to hold either a U.K. or a SI passport or both. So in principle, to retain the GFA after Brexit, NI citizens who hold SI (EU) passports in NI will have different rights to those who hold U.K. (non EU) passports ie free and frictionless movement between all EU countries; free health treatment when in EU and the right to vote in EU elections (but no one to represent them) and the same in SI; U.K. (non EU) passport holders in SI have no say in EU elections, no free access to healthcare in EU countries and no freedom to work in EU etc. How will they resolve that one then as its a fundamental part of the GFA?! Going out without a deal is disastrous for Ireland, the hard earned peace and the GFA. It was written never expecting the U.K. to leave the union.

Good posts; Varian and Dido.

Dido

You raise the ERG which voted against the Withdrawal Agreement but do not mention the other politicians and parties who did the exact same. Parliament did not vote for the European Union /UK Withdrawal Agreement hence the deadline is October 31st when we leave, unless a Deal is passed, Article 50 revoked or an extension is agreed.

If Corbyn states Labour will never vote for a Tory Deal where does that leave us? If the Lib Dems state they will never accept a referendum result that returns a leave vote where does that leave us? So many variables can be put forward as to who /what are ' at fault' for there being No Deal struck including the ERG.

When you say:-

"namely the presence of a tenacious group within the Conservative Party who have divided their party for over 20 years because of their dislike of the EU."
--

I think people conveniently choose to forget that Labour and other parties have also had those in their ranks who ' for years ' held an equal dislike of the EU, were Eurosceptic, they voted against their party ' for decades'. Labour MP's Corbyn/Skinner/Benn/Hoey et al joined the likes of Conservative MP's such as Redwood and Cash to vote against their parties on EU related matters.

Some MP's have kept to their principled stand / opinion others apparently have not but over the years it was not necessarily a one party problem. The Unions too I believe have been eurosceptic, until of late.

To be fair I think the Maastericht Treaty which gave rise to groups such as the ERG was the precursor to where we are today in relation to Brexit and a vote to Leave.

POGS
Other parties do have their eurosceptics in their midst and those who will never accept leaving is the best option for the country. But the difference is; they are not in power, the Conservative party is by a very slender majority. In fact the Conservative Party has been in power more often than any other political party since the Second World War. And that is what makes the ERG so significant. They have been troublesome for every Tory leader since their creation because their aim is total withdrawal from the EU. They are cynical and self righteous in their pursuit of their goal. If we do leave without a deal, and should what they refer to as project fear become project reality I suspect you will not see their heels for dust! (A bit like Mr Cameron when he realised what he had done! Anyone seen him lately?)They are all wealthy people to whom higher prices, shortages and a diminished NHS will mean nothing.
As for our MPs they are our representatives, they are not our delegates. We vote for them to represent us in Parliament and we do that based on how we perceive them as best reflecting our views.
Some trade unions think that the EU is an organisation whose only interests is with big business and will sell out their membership on employment rights to secure a commercial interest. Others believe that their members are better served by being within the EU and protecting their membership through solidarity with the international trade union movement. Who is right and who is wrong? Or are they both sort of right! If you are an employee in the car industry at the moment you may think there is something in both arguments!!
Boris Johnson is our second unelected prime minister (voted in by a tiny minority of the population who represent nobody but themselves ie Conservative Party membership).He has a cabinet in which ERG is extremely well represented and an unelected adviser who is acting well beyond his remit. Surely you cannot be comfortable with what is going on? Do you believe that the proroguing of Parliament in these circumstances is anything other than a cynical abuse of power? We need a written constitution, proportional representation and only a people’s vote will resolve the impasse.

Dido

The ERG did not have ' the numbers' to vote down the Withdrawal Agreement is my point. The were joined through the voting lobby with Labour/Lib Dems et al who have repeatedly voted against the EU/UK Withdrawal Agreement which means under the terms of Article 50 we now leave on October 31st. Happy to be told differently.

The ERG are obviously in the government but ' power' does not lie with any group that cannot get ' the numbers' to win a vote.

As for:-
"Boris Johnson is our second unelected prime minister (voted in by a tiny minority of the population who represent nobody but themselves ie Conservative Party membership)"

As with Gordon Brown who was an ' Unelected' Prime Minister under your definition I accept it was how the system works. At a General Election it is my opinion that voters vote for the Political Party they consider best able to run the country. Labour won the GE so Labour were quite rightly in the position of replacing Blair. When a Prime Minister dies or resigns we do not hold a General Election the baton is passed on within the party and that has happened under the Conservatives.

I still come back to the irony of the thought a ' Truly Unelected Prime Minister' under a supposed Care Taker Government of Unity is acceptable it appears to those who object to an Unelected Prime Minister who has the right to be the PM.

It is ' the principle' I find totally flawed and hypocritical and I would have that opinion if the roles were reversed and it was Corbyn in Government and a Tory/other parties were attempting to override the democratically elected party in government.
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"Surely you cannot be comfortable with what is going on? Do you believe that the proroguing of Parliament in these circumstances is anything other than a cynical abuse of power?"

I am not comfortable with what is going on but from 'Both Sides' !

The proroguing of Parliament is a mixed bag for me to be honest.

1). Proroguing Parliament ' is perfectly normal' and is required to get the Queens Speech through Parliament. It was cancelled by Theresa May for 2018.

2) I remember how the opposition parties when the Queens Speech was cancelled for 2018 calling ' FOR ' a prorogation and a Queens Speech, they accused May of having nothing to say how/no policies.

3) I have been shouted down on other threads for saying it is the length of time not the proroguing of Parliament that is the issue.

I think Boris Johnson could have prorogued Parliament after the Autumn Conference Recess which is the normal 3 weeks of Parliament not sitting. This would have been seen to be the normal length of time to get a Queens Speech through.

4) Parliament did not vote for the Conference Recess Period to be annulled prior to the Summer Recess, it could have, so it is virtue signalling by MP's who say they would vote the week before the Recess to cancel the Autumn Conference Recess period.

Johnson has taken days NOT weeks out of the Parliamentary sitting time and whilst I think it was a strategically motivated move on his part I also think others are using their own strategy to imply the proroguing period is taking away ' weeks' of debate.

Had Parliament voted to cancel the Autumn Party Conference Recess when it had the opportunity and Johnson prorogued Parliament for the same period of 23 working days then I would be the first to say he was wrong but I see a grey area because of the usual Autumn Conference Recess being part of the proroguing period.

I have asked this before but isn't there a difference between parliament not sitting during the conference season and not being able to now ie in previous years parliament could be recalled [or cancel it's conferences if necessary] but proroguing means that this is not possible at all. And that all legislation will be scrapped and will have to start again due to what's happening.

You are correct, Labaik. Conference season was a recess, voted for by Parliament. It was a break in the session, not a complete end to it. I suspect that there were plans afoot not vote for a recess. Cummings nipped them in the bud.

Jess Phillips is furious about the domestic violence [?] bill that was going through parliament...