Democracy - help me out here!

Democracy should involve a good degree of fairness. When it is patently unfair, as FPTP clearly is, then it is a very flawed form of democracy - in fact undemocratic in any true sense.

Even when the great majority in the UK supported either the Conservative or Labour Party, as was the case in the 1950s, FPTP still disenfranchised many who lived in "safe seats" where they knew their vote would never count. In times where there are more well supported parties, as we have now, the distortion in the relationship between voted and numbers of MPs is quite grotesque.

We desperately need constitutional reform. If we can stop brexit, our next priority should be to replace FPTP with PR.

"The appallingly undemocratic FPTP electoral system"

This is exactly the misuse of the word democracy that I was highlighting earlier. FPTP is not "undemocratic", it is our form of democracy. That democracy can change and evolve but the idea that this, that and the other are all "undemocratic" devalues the meaning of 'democracy'.

What we need is the political will to change and we need to put the blame where it lies, with our politics and politicians who lie, obfuscate and try to manage our thinking.

Yes Varian, I agree that we need to update our voting system, I'm very pro PR, but until we do FPTP is our democracy.

In the 2017 general election it took more than seven times the votes to elect a Liberal Democrat MP as it did to elect an SNP MP. SO who is under-represented ? Not the SNP.

There are also many Scots folk living in other parts of the UK, who were never given a vote in the 2014 referendum, who deplore the nonsense of unrepresentative MPs in the HOC elected by FPTP dictating our future.

The appallingly undemocratic FPTP electoral system, unlike the PR system used for the Scottish Parliament, results in a ludicrous over-representation of the SNP, who end up with far more seats in the Westminster Parliament than the Liberal Democrats on the basis of far fewer votes.

Paddyann I think you should stop saying that the English do the bullying. it is inaccurate. It is the wealthy MP's and their wealthy friends. That they are English doesn't mean that they give a stuff about us ordinary people. We are just as stomped on as you think you are! We are all treated badly IMO..
We English ordinary people also feel as if we are ignored. because we are.
It is the wealthy ruling classes not "The English"

This seems relevant to people's understanding of democracy.

m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR14XaoAiwlueuu8CEdaLioyfcRV9bXZiDrdpBF6um7Vxc_LrJS3Qa7wnJM&feature=youtu.be&v=_HDFegpX5gI#

apy ? I think I meant 'contribute'....

nonnie says: growstuff the rich do pay more taxes. It was only about a week ago we heard that the top 1% of earners pay about, was it 30%?

It has been pointed out that although 'the rich' appear to pay more this is based on earned income only.

Richard Murphy explains:

those on the last (I think he actually means 'lowest' here) levels of income in the UK very often have the highest overall tax rates because of the VAT, council tax, other indirect taxes and charges such as the BBC licence fee that they have to pay out of low incomes.


Those on the highest incomes also very often have the lowest overall rates of tax. This is partly because of the extraordinary range of allowances and reliefs that are available to them and because when you have very high income it is possible to divert large parts of your earnings to a company, and pay very low rates of tax as a result, and to generate capital gains, where rates are also far below those paid by most who work for a living.

I'm not too sure what the 30% figure represents. Is it that they contribute 30% of the tax take or is it that they apy 30% of their income in tax? If it is the latter, the highest tax rate on earned income is 45% so how come they are only paying 30%? (see why above)

If it is the former then that is only right as they have the largest proportion of wealth.

Murphy is suspicious:

Their (i.e rightwing media and commentators) agenda is to promote a falsehood, which is that the rich pay most tax when as a proportion of the incomes that is almost certainly not true. But, more worryingly, I think that they are now extrapolating that to not just a claim to unwarranted virtue, but a claim to sole participation in the control of society that is profoundly anti-democratic.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/08/07/beware-the-right-wings-claims-on-income-tax-payments-their-aim-is-profoundly-anti-democratic/

I have just put an article on www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1264173-Johnson-and-Brexit that was in the Times growstuff that adds to what they have the power to do.

Interesting article in the Irish Times, explaining how it will be difficult for No Deal to be prevented.
www.irishtimes.com/opinion/little-can-be-done-to-stop-johnson-crashing-uk-out-of-eu-1.3983067

Dominic Cummings has said that he wants to undermine parliament and the civil service. We've already seen attacks on the judiciary and diplomatic service. It seems that the royal family is next in line.

Disgusted that anybody falls for all this!

Democracy is "the Crown in Parliament" in this country. Democracy is Parliament, all else is politics.

For instance, it was decided in Parliament that we would have an advisory referendum on leaving or remaining in the EU. That is our democracy.

David Cameron then said something about the vote being carried out. That is politics.

If our parliament decided to have another vote that would be democracy too and all those standing around and shouting the odds about whether it was true democracy or not would just be politicking.

Parliament is the seat of our democracy. The MPs passing through are just today's politicians.

growstuff perhaps I put it badly, I know you know, it was for the wider audience.

I agree that facts should be known.

Yes, I know they pay more taxes. The point I was trying to make is that people disagree about how solutions should be found, even if the nature of the problem is agreed.

There are certainly people who think that the wealthy should pay less tax and that people should pay more for their own healthcare.

growstuff the rich do pay more taxes. It was only about a week ago we heard that the top 1% of earners pay about, was it 30%? There were 40+% of people who don't pay any tax at all. I'm sure someone will give the accurate figures. I'm not in either bracket!

We are in this mess because people choose to complain about things rather than see the benefits. Of course the EU has faults but that is not the most important thing. We should be looking at whether the UK is better out or in which many seem to have missed because of all the things they were told were wrong with the EU. Facts should be known.

Jillybird "means everyone who voted "out" was stupid or uneducated or unable to see the wood for the trees." I don't think anyone has suggested that 'everyone' did but I do believe some did.

I think that every time an expert comes "up with a set of figures to give a scenario of what would happen in each case." they are ridiculed. I have read so much about the likely outcome and think that if everyone took note there would be a huge backlash.

I know a lot of people say "I don't want a United States of Europe with its own peacekeeping force" so please can you tell me what would be wrong with that? We would still have control over our armed forces despite having commitments to the EU force.

Remember those promises?

twitter.com/Youth4ia/status/1158425832769171457?s=09

Another scandal involving Arron Banks who channelled dubious funds to subvert our democracy in 2016

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7345467/Arron-Banks-faces-probe-diamond-smuggling-South-Africa.html

Sorry; been away and have only skimmed through this so may have missed something but they're now talking about closing down parliament AND the banks [I think]. And people still think it's being done in the name of democracy....

growstuff
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

Brilliant

Another example of hypocrisy by somebody who criticises the EU and the "elite" - in this case from the unelected Dominic Cummings.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/10/dominic-cummings-owns-farm-got-eu-subsidy

This is the man who "advised" VoteLeave and is currently pulling Boris Johnson's strings.

Just who is "taking back control"? Not you or I, that's for sure.

*stock in trade (typo)

For a democracy to function properly, everybody has to access to and a thorough understanding of the facts. Obviously, there will be differing opinions. For example, some people will think that the better off should pay more taxes to pay for the least well off to have access to good healthcare. Some people will disagree, especially if it means they will pay more taxes. That's understandable and it's up to those who believe in a fully funded healthcare system to make a case. I get that.

What I cannot accept is blatant lying and sidestepping accepted procedures. Unfortunately, it makes these people "attractive" to those who feel let down by current systems. The Brexit lot knew that. Few of them will actually benefit from Brexit, but they whipped up support from people who have, quite frankly, been conned. They were supported by the popular press and used, as evidence, Conservative policies, which had neglected them for years. Their stick in trade is to blame somebody - in this case the EU was the scapegoat. People blamed the EU for failures of its own government.

Brexiters have been remarkably successful in persuading people to vote to make themselves worse off in every sense. Loird Sumption is right. It is the people themselves (the ones who voted to leave) who should be blamed.