Democracy - help me out here!

That would make a good PR slogan!

but so many swallowed the lies, hook, line and sinker -

but now they DO know- but will not admit they have been lied to, for some bizarre and destructive reasons

Here is some information about UK fishing. Significantly, it is the UK government which is responsible for allocating quotas, many of which have gone to foreign companies.

www.richardcorbett.org.uk/fishing/

Farage lied through his teeth about fishing. He was in a position to represent the UK, but did nothing. Why would he? It's another thing he could moan about.

Thank you, Greta. I looked him up. He's not exactly a leftie radical (lol) and I think he knows what he's talking about.

I'm sure you're aware that the British SOLD their fishing quotas to foreign fishermen. The person who represented the UK on the EU Fisheries Committee. Maybe if he'd have ever attended more than one of 42 meetings (rather than just collecting the money), British fishermen would have been better off. It was TV chef, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, who went to the top of the EU to argue the case about throwing back good fish and got the policy reversed.

This is the person (Farage) who has done more to bring about Brexit than anybody else. He's in it for himself. His hypocrisy over fishing just leaves me speechless.

I really don't understand why anybody would want to make such a leap into the dark.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

When a country has a press which criticises the judiciary and calls them traitors and publishes photographs and names of said judges we are in a bad way. I expect that there will be more of the same when Gina Miller gets back into court, she is one brave woman. Democracy and the rule of law applies to all, not just to those who voted to leave the EU

growstuff, lord Sumption's quote is from May 2019.
Food for thought here:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/democracy-is-in-the-dock-we-need-to-defend-it-5sx6sw7kd

thanks growstuff, and great last post too.

And, yes, the fault will be ours (or at least some of us).

paddyann

"pogs thats not true"
-

Well it is to me.!

I'm not sure when he wrote that, but one can see it happening before our eyes with the empty rhetoric such as "will of the people" and the games being played to force a No Deal Brexit, despite the sovereignty of Parliament. We have seen our civil service and judiciary being criticised and undermined. No, we won't see people dragged off to the Tower or public executions, but we really are witnessing and living through genuine attacks on the democratic systems we have.

Lord Sumption has this to say about democracy:

“We will not recognise the end of democracy if it comes. Advanced democracies are not overthrown. There are no tanks on the streets, no sudden catastrophes, no brash dictators or braying mobs. Instead, their institutions are imperceptibly drained of everything that once made them democratic . . .
The rhetoric of democracy will be unchanged, but it will be meaningless. And the fault will be ours.”

Feel free, jura.

Democracy should mean that every voice is heard (although that's problematic with 66 million voices), but it doesn't mean that everything people say will be acted on.

Strictly speaking, majorities will always have their way, which is why Scotland (and Wales, NI and many of the regions) will always lose out. That's why I will argue until the cows come home that democracy in itself isn't sacrosanct.

pogs thats not true ,in Democracy every voice should have the chance of being heard .Thats not the case in Westminster .When London has more MP's than the whole of Scotland there is never a way OUR MP's will get heard.I would like them to come home and work here for Independence ,UDI if WM wont"allow" a referendum.Though quite why we need permission as the only partner in the treaty of union I have no idea.They didn't ask our permission ofr the Brexit debacle .Rules for them and different ones for everyone else?

DidolaMents

The answer is very simple.

Democracy to many it only democracy ' IF it suits them'.

DLM welcome. When you have been on GN a little longer you will find that posts digress so please don't suggest we should stick directly to the OP or be critical of anyone going off on a tangent.

I think there are some great posts here so won't reiterate but I don't think anyone has commented on BJ deciding to put a presidential speech on FB. By doing so instead of being interviewed by the MSM he has become a dictator imo.

It is clear to me that revoking A50 at this stage would cause more division and that the only way to unite the UK again is to give us facts and allow us to choose the way forward.

Do as we say you plebs!

Excellent post indeed growstuff. Would you mind if I used it?

Growstuff I missed your reply to Greta and interesting response to Jura2; I’m still finding my way round gransnet; but for me you have hit the nail on the head! That is exactly what I’m concerned about! Irrespective of how I voted in the referendum or who I support or don’t support in a GE; I’m disturbed by what is happening and the disregard for our imperfect political system. Your comment about Kashmir and the ongoing India/Pakistan border. Even your goldfish must be asking about the role of our ‘colonial forefathers’ in that mess and the unrest today! We do have a lot to answer for and these are the ‘days of the empire’ ‘make Britain great again’ that some wish to see return? Really???

Woh! Quizqueen! Hang on... To quote the late great radio presenter/journalist Brian Readhead when accused of political bias by Nigel Lawson : ‘Do you think we should have a one-minute silence now, one for you to apologise for daring to suggest that you know how I vote?’?

With reference to the numbers of English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish we're back to my original comment about two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for lunch.

I agree absolutely.

Look a little further afield and see what's happening in India and Pakistan. Both are supposed to be democracies, but minorities aren't being well-served.

Many people much more savvy than I have written about the flaws of democracy.

It must be blindingly obviously to anybody with a brain no bigger than a goldfish that a system which allows a minority of the electorate to "win" a referendum, keep a minority government in power and then to hand the top job to someone based on the preferences of a few thousand people, who then delegates operational details to somebody completely unelected - is a flawed system, however "legal" it is (putting aside for the moment any illegalities, which have not been insignificant). The system itself is undemocratic.

Hi Paddyann. Sorry taken a while to get back and answer your comment. Thank you for it and I understand your frustration. I believe that FPTP is dying and hope that reform will bring about PR. What we don’t want is the death throws of FPTP bringing about a Kleptocracy! (MaizieD we are back to the ancient Greeks again!) When you argue from the points you made, you make people say: ‘Well there are about 53.0 million English; 5.3 million Scots; 3.1 million Welsh and 1.8 million Northern Irish, so isn’t that right for a representative Parliament?’ But that is far too simplistic and we then get side tracked by dead ends like the West Lothian/English Question and then I may say what about the discrepancy between the North and South and what ever happened to the Northern Powerhouse??‍♀️. There we go then; Scots are mad at the English; the North have a go at the South and the Irish resent us all cos we may be screwing up their long sought after and hard won peace! Mo Mowlem would be doing her nut if she was still around! All this does is divide us more and more! And whilst we argue some unelected ‘dude’ is changing the political landscape! We should ask what do the English understand about living in Scotland? What do the Scots understand about being English, or Welsh? What do any of us understand of living in Northern Ireland? I believe in Subsidiarity, ‘..... the principle of social organization that holds that social and political issues should be dealt with at the most immediate (or local) level...’ Just because someone is in a minority doesn’t mean they give up their right to have influence over their political futures. Does not mean we cannot stand together in what is becoming a hostile and fragile world, does it?