Democracy - help me out here!

Well, Labour activists can enjoy navel gazing and discussing ideology and procedures as much as they like. Meanwhile, the electorate will be alienated and the Conservatives will get on with destroying the country.

It always amuses me when people claim to have left wing views but then slag off the Labour party because they listen to ordinary people and actually discuss issues. Presumably they would much rather have policy dictated by a few individuals.
As far as lobbying goes I was involved a few years ago with a major UK charity and was able to see lobbying for myself at close quarters. It is unbelievable what is provided for MPs particularly during party conferences, when organisations, professional lobbyists, Old Uncle Tom Cobbley and all gather to try and get their particular project adopted and legislated on.

Grandad

'Therefore the grassroots activists within the Labour movement have now a structure, leader and set of policies that they overwhelmingly support'
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It certainly does have a structure and that is Momentum.

There have been many threads where the argument surrounds the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum/Labour Party commonly viewed as the party within a party.

Corbyn naturally surrounds himself with those whom he knows put him before all else., that may change now they are fully ensconsed at the top of the Labour Party. I always thought Corbyn was the ' likeable' face but McDonnell will be the chosen one in time.

Grandad

POGS,
"then we shall just have to agree to disagree as I believe the "facts" speak for themselves in the Parliamentary setup.
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I am happy to accept my ' facts' so I guess that is where we have landed.

Isn't it time you let Momentum go POGS? even the MMedia have stopped going on about it.

We have evolved a system over centuries, through civil wars and much internal strife, that has many faults. But it is still one of the best in the world - particularly for a population approaching 70 million. Suggestions for real improvements helpful - pointing out just where the system lets one or other down - not really useful.

? sandelf

So what are your ideas sandelf? any process of change begins with looking at what is wrong then finding solutions.

trisher Mon 26-Aug-19 11:13:51
Isn't it time you let Momentum go POGS? even the MMedia have stopped going on about it.
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You would like that trisher wouldn't you.

The media has NOT stopped going on about Momentum. What has happened however Momentum is now so accepted as being part of Labour there are regular Momentum activists interviewed to speak on behalf of the Momentum/Labour Party.

If another General Election is forth coming then we will see even more calls for ' deselection' of MP's, more Momentum candidates named as candidates. Of course it will all be the fault of the nasty right wing press who dare to mention Momentum.

As for ' isn' t it time you let go' I suppose I could mention Brexit/ERG etc. etc. but I respect you have your opinion and prefer to debate rather than shut down another posters opinions. Each to his/her own.

Do you really have to cross-question people trisher? You are not asking about any sort of clarification but have gone into interrogation mode.

I disagree that change necessitates deciding what is "wrong". You only do that when something ceases to be "right". As Trisher said, we still have one of the best forms of democracy in the world. Even with all the problems at the moment, it shows the truth about how closely the division is.

To my mind, what is worth looking at is progress. That is my reason for being in favour of PR. I would suggest that properly explained (Citizen's Assemblies?), all but a few would see this as making their vote count in a more democratic way than it does at the moment.

My second suggestion, for a now more educated country, would be the use of citizens assemblies to enable a clearer, unbiased understanding.

My third would be an English parliament. England is the only country in the "Kingdom" that does not have it's own. We could then move from the less democratic House of Lords to an elected (more democratic) Second Chamber which works as the independent revising chamber for each and every county's Parliament or Assembly and as the UK Parliament. This should raise the standard (and pay) of those representing the UK and give England more of a sense of autonomy, letting us see what "Englishness" means today.

GracesGranMk3 Sorry if you don't like me asking questions but when someone makes sweeping statements I really think they should clarify them. Having experienced the lobby system for instance I would like every MP to make clear to their constituents any meetings they have with influential bodies and lobbyists. They might also have to declare where they go for lunch during party conferences. The idea that there is no such thing as a free lunch doesn't seem to apply to them and the lobbyists know this.
POGS The media has NOT stopped going on about Momentum. What has happened however Momentum is now so accepted as being part of Labour there are regular Momentum activists interviewed to speak on behalf of the Momentum/Labour Party.
Would you like to supply an example or link?

The way that some on this forum speak of Momentum being within the Labour movement, any stranger to British politics reading threads such as this could be forgiven for believing they were two-headed monsters bent on world destruction.

However, Momentum was originally born out of the Unite Union Trade Group Branch Structure who formed sub-community branches in areas surrounding large industrial and commercial sites. The Branches within the Unite Union are allowed to be somewhat autonomous in their activities and retain funds within all branches for that purpose.

The Comunity branches were formed in the early years of the Millenium to enhance communication with residents in communities surrounding the above sites and were (and still are in many cases) run by local workplace union reps and branch lay organisers.

In the above, as those community branches developed they began to link up to campaign for better conditions for residents in areas that surround large industrial or commercial sites, and In that was the ambition to create and gain a "Momentum" that comes of joint action.

Eventually, the branches of other trades unions joined the lay Unite Union organisers which brought more weight and finances to those community endeavours. With Jon Lansman in connection with Jeremy Corbyn and others in the Labour Party/movement gaining interest in the growing ambitions of those lay community organisers they then jointly formed Momentum out of those active within those branches.

So, many activists within Momentum are just working persons from often deprived areas who through those community branches and Momentum have been given a political voice in the Labour Movement. Through that those persons have become organised and then elected to offices within District and Consistency Labour Parties.

I fail to see anything subversive in the above, for how can there be when it is only working people organising, campaigning and then being granted a political voice.

trisher
POGS

Would you like to supply an example or link?
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I have my eyes open and I hear clearly.

Do you not watch political programmes?

Grandad

No not 'World' destruction, just the dedtruction of the Labour Party ' traitors', or Blairites as they are so known.

We hear and see what we want to see and unless we have open minds what we think we have seen or heard may be filtered through our prejudices POGS. I think your bias is plainly visible. The Labour party was shifted violently to the right by Blair and associates. I see no reason why it shouldn't be brought back to its true values.

trisher

This is a pattern.

Play the man not the ball. Don't engage in debate or challenge just make it personal.

It it keeps you happy I have achieved something I guess.

POGS you make statements but can't back them up. You make accusations that are largely unfounded and purely based on personal prejudice. I don't call that reasoned argument but I will withdraw any remarks you consider personal if you can back any of the allegations you constantly make with real evidence.
For example why do you consider it was OK for a small group of activists with very personal goals to take over Labour policy under Blair, but it is not OK for a larger group- Momentum- to change the policies back to those with genuine socialist ideals at their core? We are surrounded by the results of right wing policies, with food banks,no social housing, homeless families, cash strapped schools, unaffordable rents and rapidly increasing waiting lists in the NHS. Something has to change.

Sorry been tied up for most of the past day so I could not reply.

Firstly I have no inside information but am aware of the paths that have been trodden by just about every anti-democratic government since the start of the last century.

The courts independence is removed by changing the law so that judges are able to be dismissed for a number of reasons and that their tenure is limited in some cases by enforcing a new retirement age, which may seem reasonable to many as judges in most jurisdictions are seen to be old and unrepresentative.

I agree pogs, restricting the ownership of media is potentially dangerous and is often used by anti-democratic forces as a mechanism for stifling debate. However I would argue that the present situation is equally damaging where the power to present thoughts and ideas is effectively in the hands of an increasingly diminishing number of people or bodies. Not only that but the ability of the public to challenge lies and liables is eliminated by the limits placed on the legal aid system. Restore the legal aid system and maybe we can afford bodies like News International as it is they are far too dangerous to society and democracy.

I support the view that momentum is. Anti-democratic and not in the interest of the Labour Party or the electorate. Either momentum is not part of the Labour party, in which case a member cannot also be a member of the Labour Party being effectively a political party by virtually every definition of one; or they a party within the party and all of its members should be expelled. The only reason the heat has turned down upon the issue is because the fickle public has got bored with the issue.

trisher

POGS you make statements but can't back them up. You make accusations that are largely unfounded and purely based on personal prejudice. I don't call that reasoned argument but I will withdraw any remarks you consider personal if you can back any of the allegations you constantly make with real evidence."
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We keep ending up in the same place don't we. You do not respond to content in my posts but want proof of what I say, then you usually ignore the contentand again return with more personal comment. Ironically when I post evidence you are never happy with that.

Which statements and ALLEGATIONS, not personal views or opinions, have I made that you want evidence too?

absthame Quote [I support the view that momentum is. Anti-democratic and not in the interest of the Labour Party or the electorate.] End Quote.

absthame, the trades unions have always been an integral part of the Labour Party as that party was born out of the trade union movement.

Momentum was born out of the Unite Union Branch Structure and run originally by lay activists within that Structure.

Branches within the trades unions can individually affiliate to any District or Constituency Labour Party and in that elected members of that union branch can attend the meetings of those District and constituency parties, join debates, contribute to the organising of the party and stand for election as a lay officer in those parties.

In the above, those affiliated members can stand for election to any office in the Labour Party/Movement which can be under the name of Momentum if they so desire.

So absthame, the trades unions, Momentum and the Labour Party are all part of the Broad Labour movement in the country. All who are active in that movement have been elected in free ballots to the positions they hold.

Therefore absthame what is anti-democratic in the above.

POGS I can't keep asking. You refused before and instead asked if I watched political programmes. You really can't accuse me of playing the man not the ball after that.
I did look on-line and the last newspaper article mentioning Momentum was on 4th August.

Grandad1943 to say that momentum is legitimate in Labour Party terms because it started life within the trades union movement is utter nonsense. A similar argument can be made to legitimise Oswald Moseley as a democratic socialist as he start his rise to political eminence, if that's what it was, within the Labour Party or Robert Mugabe being other than a despot because of his early commitments to a democratic cause or virtually every anti-democratic movement in history that has been born from democratic bodies. I'm afraid momentum can only stand or fall on what it does, amongst other things that has been to undermine the democratic systems within the Labour party.

absthame, I say again, the Trades Unions, Momentum, the Trades Councils, Constituency and District Labour parties and the Parliamentary Labour Party are all part of the overarching broad Labour movement in Britain.

All those who hold office in that movement are elected whether that be to the highest responsibility or least responsibility of office.

All of the above bodies interlink within that broad labour movement and contribute to each others being.

Without the affiliation of the broad Labour movement (including Momentum), there would be no Parliamentary Labour Party for anyone to praise or chastise.

It is as simple as that.

And I repeat Grandad1943 that no matter how it is viewed momentum is in violation of the party's constitution that it has managed to usurp by the means of entryism, a ploy that has been attempted in the past that has always led to labour being locked out of power for long periods. The thing that you fail to acknowledge has nothing to do with the reaction to the Blair period, but is all to do with the lust that the Communists, Trotskyists, Anarchists and all of the anti-democratic left have had for the Labour Party as the only mechanism for the left to gain political power in the UK. However having gained control of the Labour Party you will find even with a the best face can be mustered, the electorate will not accept a Labour Party controlled by momentum or similar undemocratic cliques, parties or groupings.........they don't trust you

absthame, could you please inform me how any person or group that are ELECTED into the positions that hold can be undemocratic.

In regard to your remark in your post @-23:29 (26/08/19) that " they do not trust you", it may interest you to know i am not even a member of the Labour Party.