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Boris's plans to deal with violent crime

(70 Posts)
Fennel Tue 13-Aug-19 16:01:28

As far as I understand it, he plans to increase the number of prisons to deter those involved in gang/violent crime.
Apart from the financial and staffing practicalities, do you think this is the answer?

varian Tue 13-Aug-19 19:25:43

Thank you quizqueen for that classic example of uninformed opinion on "law and order" typical of the ultra-right.

You cannot even give a minute to considering whether this "lock em up and throw away the key" policy has ever worked or could ever work to reduce offending.

It is typical of the simplistic thinking which has lead to the brexit nonsense and so much else which has gone wrong in our country thanks to the influence of the Daily Mail, Express and The Sun.

Day6 Tue 13-Aug-19 19:27:07

You'd be surprised growstuff

Do stop making arrogant assumptions. hmm

I don't have a stereotype but you obviously see me as not knowing anything about the criminally inclined or indeed of having any dealings with them either.

varian Tue 13-Aug-19 19:32:04

What Works to Reduce Re-offending: A Summary of the Evidence

Day6 Tue 13-Aug-19 19:36:33

It is typical of the simplistic thinking which has lead to the brexit nonsense and so much else which has gone wrong in our country thanks to the influence of the Daily Mail, Express and The Sun

Oh be careful Varian That was rather imperious.

People might accuse you of seeing anyone who disagrees with you as stupid or a reader of certain papers.

Your sentence sums up the arrogance and blinkered thinking of Remainers. You really do fit the sneering, short-sighted remainer model who dismisses anyone who believes and thinks differently. hmm

Fennel Tue 13-Aug-19 19:37:19

"The criminally inclined" -
Day6 I don't see the young people involved in these violent gangs, even if drugs are involved, as criminally inclined.
When I was that age I belonged to a 'gang'. But TG our activities were more adventurous than criminal.
But there are more sophisticated influences on young people at work now.

varian Tue 13-Aug-19 19:40:44

There is a huge difference between a person who forms their opinions based on facts, evidence, research and their own experience and a person who believes exactly what they are told to believe by the right wing tabloids.

All of us, I imagine, have friends or acquaintances with different opinions. Some deserve respect and others do not.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:50:53

Before the last GE, I went to the hustings, when all the hopefuls face questions from the general public. When asked about the Tory reduction in police numbers, the Tory candidate first denied there had been a cut. Then, she claimed that the numbers weren't relevant and the number of police officers has no relevance to crime or the number of solved crime.

So what's the truth? Far be it from to suggest that my (now) MP was lying through her teeth.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:52:20

Ahem! And I wonder which model you fit, Day6.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:53:41

I wasn't making any assumptions, Day6, nor was I being arrogant.

I was asking a question.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 19:55:00

And you're not a very good mindreader.

All I can do is judge you by what you write and what you have written suggests you're prone to stereotyping.

Fennel Tue 13-Aug-19 19:55:43

I've just found this on the Independent's website:
"Boris’s “new” proposal to create 10,000 new prison places was, in fact, announced by Michael Gove three years ago, albeit cushioned by the slightly fluffier language of “rehabilitation”."

EllanVannin Tue 13-Aug-19 19:59:55

This is all too little too late and nothing will work.

GillT57 Tue 13-Aug-19 20:17:51

Did anyone else see the BBC news tonight about 'county lines" and the exploitation by drug dealers of vulnerable children in the so called care system? It would make you weep, or it should. The supervised housing (outsourced) was shameful and it looked disgusting and the police officers were in despair as they are the front line social and mental health service. The people at the top of the drug business need to be dealt with because of the misery and exploitation but no amount of 'bang them up and throw away the key" will solve the problems that these rejected and overlooked children suffer.

growstuff Tue 13-Aug-19 21:48:51

Why am I not surprised, Fennel?

Interesting though it proves that my (now) MP really was lying through her teeth.

Was it Gove's predecessor, Chris Grayling, who wanted to ban prisoners from having books? That'll teach them!

varian Wed 14-Aug-19 11:47:32

A barrister warns us Johnson's plan to lock up more criminals is a con:-

"This is why I am angry. Not because I’m a “lefty” inherently resistant to Boris Johnson’s white hot public service reforms. I’m angry because as a prosecutor I am still having to sit down with crying witnesses week after week and explain that their torment is being prolonged for another six months because the government refuses to pay to keep courtrooms open. I’m angry because the Innocence Tax – the policy that forces the wrongly accused to pay privately for their legal representation and then denies them their costs, bankrupting them, when they are acquitted – is not even in the political peripheral vision. I’m angry because our Prime Minister is a man who looks at the record rates of death, violence, suicide, overcrowding and self-harm in our prisons and whose first question is, “How do we get more people in there?”. I’m angry because the notion that you “crack down on crime” by chucking a few more police officers onto the streets and shoving more and more people into our death-riven prisons is a con. It is a con to victims of crime, and it is a con to you, the public. I’m angry because we have the indignity of a dishonest, cowardly and exploitative Prime Minister fiddling with his Party’s g-spot while the criminal justice system burns.

Don’t fall for his con trick."

Fennel Wed 14-Aug-19 12:01:20

Very strong stuff, varian.
That's how I feel too, though his feelings must be much stronger than mine.

winterwhite Wed 14-Aug-19 12:34:26

"Let's hug a hoody" was also once Tory policy. Whatever happened to that?

GillT57 Wed 14-Aug-19 12:57:13

An eloquent and informative article varian but sadly it will be disregarded and probably rubbished as leftie nonsense by the lock em up brigade. I would stake my house on this information not being published by the Mail and Express or the Borisgraph.

Iam64 Wed 14-Aug-19 12:57:43

varian, many thanks for your contributions to this thread, especially for the link to the research and to the Secret Barrister's views.
The evidence hasn't changed since I started work with offenders in the late 70's. The next 40 years I worked with children and families, most families had an adult who'd been in prison and many had children involved with the youth justice systems.
The evidence says, countries who put money and expertise into early years are likely to have less drug/alcohol/mental health or crime than those like ours, that come on after offending/anti social behaviour has started to attract the attention of the authorities.
Boris Johnsons and Priti Patel are appealing to people who aren't interested in research, or what actually works and helps society.
Short prison sentences don't work. They're often the last resort for drug addicted mothers who have worked their way through alternatives to custody. They get 3 months hmp. Unless they have family to step in, their children go into foster care, often separately as finding places for 3 - 6 children and keeping them together is almost impossible. The emotional damage done to these vulnerable family units is immeasurable, although we can predict those children will become "known" to the criminal justice system.
Put money into prevention, into early years, into supporting vulnerable parents. Bring back youth clubs, relationship building between area social work teams and the families they're there to support. Re-open the family centres, the drug and alcohol treatment services. Yes, have more police officers and teams of social workers, probation officers and community police officers working together.
By all means have long sentences for dangerous offenders. But don't think returning to Victorian bread, water and cruel regimes will rehabilitate them.
We could learn a lot from the Netherlands.

varian Wed 14-Aug-19 13:04:31

I did hear some time ago that The Netherlands also had an innovative regime of sending inmates nearing release home at weekends and using their cells to lock up minor offenders such as football hooligans for 48 hours starting on Friday evening for a few weekends. That way they could keep their jobs, homes and families whilst being punished and experiencing prison, which might act as a deterrent.

EllanVannin Wed 14-Aug-19 13:20:59

I'm angry because numerous requests for files/documents from Essex police, which were withheld 34 years ago, have been ignored. Despite 2 court orders also requesting same.
This is in connection with a MOJ.
Sajid Javid has also ignored letters/requests sent to him.

The prisoner who has been incarcerated for 33 years can't get legal aid so donations/funds have had to be set up in order to pay for forensic scientists, lawyers and QC's who are working behind the scenes.

This has been and continues to be the most disgusting form of so-called justice in disallowing new found evidence to be delayed because of shortfalls in funding.

I'm confident that in the not too distant future that the said prisoner's sentence will be quashed and he'll walk free, but I'm sure those who put him where he is will continue doing their damnedest to ignore this issue because of what the cost will be in releasing him as a MOJ !

A bad example of our justice system !

JenniferEccles Wed 14-Aug-19 13:28:37

I do believe that prisons need to be run on a tough unpleasant regime so that criminals actually fear being sent there.

At the moment they are run more like holiday camps.

If that is coupled with more police on the streets to act as a deterrent surely that would help.

I totally agree with Prity Patel’s statement that criminals need to feel terror in the same way that their actions can terrorise their poor victims.

The namby pamby attitude isn’t working is it?

GillT57 Wed 14-Aug-19 13:57:01

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GillT57 Wed 14-Aug-19 13:57:46

Sorry Varian, not avriananger made the type errors.

Bossyrossy Wed 14-Aug-19 14:08:07

The Office for National Statistics shows that some types of crime have decreased while others, such as knife crime, have increased. The later quite rightly receives a lot of publicity and perpetrators need to be punished but we need to tackle the causes of crime if we are to see a drop in all criminal activity. Poor housing, the withdrawal of support for families, children and young people in need, cuts in education budgets, these are the things that we need to spend money on if we are to see a reduction in all crime, not building more prisons.