So he’s done it?

* GrannyGravy13* Fri 30-Aug-19 10:58:27 "If we do not leave on the 31/10/19 then it should be that we remain, and try to change/object to the gradual creep of Federalisation from within the EU." You and I are in agreement on that, except that I would make it "If we do not leave on the 31/10/19 with a reasonable deal that is better than relying on WTO terms . . "

Elegran, yes I have just said in my last post that leaving with a deal is my preferred choice.

GrannyGravy13 My first choice would be to remain. The worst possible event is leaving with no deal - I cannot understand how anyone with even half a brain would choose to leave with no deal and actively campaign and plot for that (unless, of course, they are gambling their millions against sterling, and already have one foot in a tax haven. Now, who do we think might be in that position? Do they have any influence on how things turn out? )

'A second investment fund has been set up in Ireland by the City firm co-founded by Jacob Rees-Mogg, after it warned earlier this year about the financial dangers of the sort of hard Brexit favoured by the Conservative MP'.

Remind me why JRM et al are so keen to leave the EU again?

WW Mk 2

'The mendacity of the man and and cowardice is easy to define when comparing to the previous Tory PM May.

Week after week she stood pleading with parliament to accept her WA but traitors like Johnson joined forces with the opposition and consistently voted her WA down'
--

' Traitors like Johnson ' now there is a statement!

So you consider those MP's who did not vote for The Withdrawal Agreement are ' TRAITORS ' !

If that is your opinion then the Labour Party / SNP/Lib Dems/Plaid Cymru/Greens /Rebel Conservatives/Soubry & Co are all ' TRAITORS '.

The weird thing is your statement is false, an untruth whether intentional or not.

Boris Johnson DID vote for the Withdrawal Agreement, albeit probably to get things moving forward after 3 years of political shenanigans.

No pogs in your enthusiasm to find me guilty, you are once again barking up the wrong tree.

What I would suggest you do is to ask a simple question (if you would find it possible first) before dashing in with charger.

I meant that Johnson was being a traitor to his political party. He voted the way he did for personal ambition.

I see Cummings has sacked Javid’s advisor.

One man band this pathetic government which says one thing and does another.

At what point will leavers have the courage to admit that this and its consequences is not what they voted for?

When they believe it?

The evidence is there, Pantglas. There is no way anybody can claim they knew what they voted for.

I've posted loads of clips of what the Leave leaders said. Either people believed them, in which case they were conned, or they didn't believe them, so knew they were liars and this is the chaos which would ensue.

If they knew what the consequences would be, they should have the guts to admit they didn't believe the promises and knew what would happen.

One thing I am clear about is that for many who voted leave it was/is not about Europe.

Tory austerity and spin/lies is behind many leave vote.

These are the voters who will feel totally let down after Brexit. They are the one that will bring the Tories down.

The bottom line is that a handful of people have already made loads of money on the money markets - and will make more.

Some of them (not necessarily the same people) will benefit from deregulation in areas such as declaring tax and relaxation of laws relating to food hygiene and workplace practices.

Immediately after the referendum, I actually just shrugged my shoulders and thought I understood why people had voted to leave. Since then, it's become increasingly obvious how much public opinion was manipulated and many of the people who voted to leave will be the ones whose jobs will be lost and who will suffer most from further cuts to public services and higher prices.

Why do they still believe all the cr*p about unelected elites and taking back control?

Yes, they will bring the Tories down, but what will replace them?

I read an article recently about Dominic Cummings (I'll see if I can find it). He hates the Tories and wants to replace them, but not clear with what? Some kind of anarchic society, where the devil takes the hindmost. There are some others in the Tory party who think like that.

It really is quite terrifying. I think even the people who claim to know what they voted might hesitate. The trouble is, of course, that a minority will support it because they'll be the "I'm alright Jacks" and our flawed undemocratic voting systems will ensure they win.

If people actually took a step back and stopped thinking of me as "low and nasty", they might understand why I've compared what's happening now to 1933 Germany. I've never claimed that we're heading for a holocaust (well, I hope not anyway), but there are frightening parallels with the way power was seized.

Remind me why JRM et al are so keen to leave the EU again?

If you remind us why huge business concerns want to stay in the EU, an organisation that fans the flames of austerity throughout Europe?

Could it be big bosses can exploit a low-paid migrant workforce, the poorest and most desperate, who'll take paltry wages, who cannot be unionised and who lack rights and decent conditions - just so they can make massive profits whilst the poorest stay on the treadmill, grateful for the crumbs that fall?

It's a Dickensian-model, a dream scenario for rich-pickings for the fat cats, who get away with oppressing the poorest.

The EU is a convenient shelter for greedy capitalist concerns and ending its ability to cover up its true power grab has always been a socialist, humanitarian cause.

Eurosceptic Corbyn's new-found enthusiasm for Brussels is disgraceful. It's unbelievable that he has ditched his long-held principles. Just shows how power corrupts when a gravy train is involved or the keys to Number Ten are dangled.

Dominic Cummings is no chicken

unherd.com/2019/08/dominic-cummings-is-no-chicken/

day6 I think you have just made my point.j

And you honestly think that ordinary people will be better off? Really?

Strange really, because I'd never realised that you have such communistic tendencies, Day 6.

You seem a little confused.

PS. Sorry to bring up 1930s Nazi Germany again, but Hitler said almost exactly the same kind of thing about the people he perceived to be in charge of the economy and promised the world to the underdogs.

Actually growstuff when you think about it, Cummings is just one man, advisors come and go, but think about Momentum.....a whole group who are here to stay and drip feeding Corbyn his lines of thought.

Could we possibly leave Hitler and the Nazis out of the thread, or is it too much to ask?!
Sigh.

Precisely Day - which is why it suits them to move their business interests there.

Interesting that JC's apparent volte-face causes so much concern but not so much from the new Tory cabinet who previously claimed a no deal was not on the table or prorogation was not an option.

Why should I leave them out? Are you really saying we have learnt nothing from the way the Nazis seized power?

Everybody under about 40 learnt about in school and I would have thought it was in the general knowledge of anybody older.

The parallels in how an ideology succeeded in capturing popular opinion are frightening.

I, for on, prefer not to hide my head in the sand. Transport us back to 1933 and many in this country would have fitted in very well. They weren't evil, but they just wanted to get on with their lives, accept the freebies, believe in the rhetoric and didn't see what was coming.

No lemongrove I'm not going to think about Momentum. Labour isn't in power (and, no, I don't think much of Seumas Milne either).

Whataboutery alert!

The whataboutery is that Nazis and Hitler get brought into threads by posters as their ‘last resort’......well known tactic on forums.