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and it ties us to the EU indefinitely.
The Irish backstop could be the least of our worries.
May's WA must be rejected completely. It is an incredibly complicated document leaving hardly a subject not covered, and everything in it has been designed to be beneficial to the EU.
I doubt if any MP has read it from cover to cover. Nearly every paragraph is cross-referenced to a Treaty, Regulation or Directive, and each one has to be looked up, read and understood before moving on. It takes hours.
So says John Ashworth in his article This EU-written Withdrawal Agreement is toxic from start to finish
www.conservativewoman.co.uk/this-eu-written-withdrawal-agreement-is-toxic-from-start-to-finish/
It is a very revealing article, written by someone who has made an effort to link the words to the many treaties, acts and sub-paragraphs which determine the UK's role after a decidedly dodgy exit (or non-exit as it transpires) from the EU.
It is very worrying.
He concludes
During any transition period, we would not be classified as a ‘third country’, so although technically one could claim that we had left the EU, in practical terms, we *wouldn’t have done so – rather the opposite*
We would effectively be controlled by the EU to such a degree that we might just as well shut our Parliament down
We would finally become a ‘third country’ on 1 January 2023, as it is doubtful that the EU would consider an extension other than on the previous transition terms, which would essentially mean that we would still not have left the EU in any meaningful way
We would still be paying our ongoing fees, at full rate, to the EU. The EU would still control our fisheries and our armed forces and we would still be subject to the European Court of Justice, with our Parliament still essentially sidelined. No one in their right minds could want us to be in such a situation
We do not want Brexit in name only (BRINO) which is what the WA will give us, if our only request is the dropping of the backstop.
Boris, must be careful. May's WA is a non-starter. Farage, in waiting, understands that the WA has to be rejected - in full.
I'm a tad fed up of pointing out that democracy is more complicated than one single referendum, but it's so important that it's worth repeating.
More learned people than I have been writing books about the definition of democracy for hundreds of years.
How are you so sure Chestnut?
Every poll over the last couple of years has shown a shift towards more people wanting to remain - or at least a "soft Brexit" (whatever that's supposed to mean).
I'm as cynical about polls as anyone, but the number of them and the consistency would suggest they're probably right.
Of course, if you have evidence to make you so sure, I'm sure it would be interesting to read.
PS. How would you solve the problem of the Irish border because it's not just going to go away?
Chestnut If you and others are certain that leave would win now because you chose to ignore the hundred or more opinion polls over the last two years which have shown that most UK voters want to Remain , then why would you oppose another vote?
varian - there is no definitive way to know how people would vote now. Many people who voted remain want to leave now. But I'm sure the opposite also applies. However, I'm certain leave would win if we had another vote.
However, what would be the point of another vote when the result of the first vote has been ignored? If we had the same result (or higher) you still wouldn't accept it!
Remainers will just not respect democracy.
English Rose why do you claim there are now more leavers than there were at the time of the fraudulent referendum when all the evidence of opinion polls over the last two years show a decisive majority for remain?
graycat you are so right, but none of these facts are ever presented to the readers of the downmarket rightwing tabloids like the Daily Express, Sun and Daily Mail who just keep harping on that 17.4m people voted leave and so the MPs must do as they are instructed.
This argument was always threadbare, especially after the fraudulent referendum was exposed as an utter corruption of our democracy by foreign billionaires who certainly never had the best interests of our country at heart.
Now after more than three years it is totally discredited, yet they keep repeating it because there is no other argument for this brexit nonsense.
Chestnut, well said.
graycat....there are many MORE Leavers now than the 17.4 million in 2016. Fact! I personally know many people who have since changed their minds and told me they would vote to Leave now. However you only have my word for this. In the past 3 years they have seen for themselves the rise of anti EU feelings and protests in European countries. Italy, France, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Portugal and more. I know two Slovakians currently here in a house I let who loathe the EU and tell me most of their country does too. Italy has been forced into debt by the EU as was Greece.
3 years ago the EU publicly stated there would be no EU Army. It is now 2/3rds formed.
Have you heard of the Lisbon Treaty? If not please research as it kicks in next year and our armed forces will be completely subjugated to the EU. In other words if the EU want a war with, say Russia, we will HAVE to comply.
They did not vote to 'leave with a deal'
Of all the vacuous statements made by Leavers this one really has to take pride of place.
How the bl**dy hell did they expect 'leaving' to happen?
Maddyone. Sorry I got you all riled up I wasn't serious about the medicine and I don’t think Jura was either.
However it was the fault of the leave voters for all this mess we are in now. I will continue to remind those misguided voters that thought a cherry picking deal, Canada plus plus plus and no migrants was going to be easy.
Although I don’t like EU much I believe it is in the interest of the country to stay in and fight for reform within, because I was sure the EU would not grant a better deal than its existing members got.
That is exactly the situation we are in, heaven knows what we will end up with but it won’t be better than remaining.
The country did not vote to leave. Barely a third did. Those most affected had no vote. Vote leave broke electoral law. Many leave voters have changed their minds now they know more.
Chestnut, Quote [Project Fear in full flow! We don't know any of these things will happen. They warned us of the most dire consequences unless we joined the euro but it was all nonsense and thank goodness we didn't.] End Quote.
Chestnut, we do know that these things will happen because they are now already happening.
Link from my above post @-14:31 today:-
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/01/one-three-uk-firms-activate-plans-move-operations-abroad-no-deal-brexit-iod-survey
www.independent.ie/world-news/nearly-800-billion-of-assets-moved-to-europe-due-to-brexit-uncertainty-37688158.html
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-02/great-brexit-insurance-migration-shifts-75-billion-from-london
But of course leave supporters never wish to see the huge amount of evidence that is now to be witnessed, do they?
What about Ireland, Chestnut? How would you solve that?
First you need to explain why we should have listened to all the 'experts' who said we should have joined the euro or it would be disaster for us. The same people who now tell us it will be a disaster if we have a no deal Brexit.
In the future, I can guarantee that a question will appear on exam papers such as "Explain how democracy was shown to be a flawed concept during the Brexit crisis", Johnson is a bit player, who played at politics for his own gain, in the whole sorry saga - nothing more.
What about Ireland, Chestnut?
Project Fear in full flow! We don't know any of these things will happen. They warned us of the most dire consequences unless we joined the euro but it was all nonsense and thank goodness we didn't.
Chestnut, so, from your above post @-14:53 today we can take it that you care nothing for the Jobs that will be lost as the manufacturing industry and it's suppliers relocate to European Union member states due to Brexit.
You care nothing for the lives that will be ruined, families that will not be able to pay their mortgages or rents and may well face a very uncertain future.
You care nothing for the tax loss to the British exchequer as companies relocate to European Union member states which will in all probability lead to even more austerity. In that, we will undoubtedly witness further cuts to education, the Health Services, welfare and pensions.
Therefore, can you inform this forum Chestnut ( or any other forum member) when we can expect to receive whatever benefits this Brexit will bring to this nation, and what those great benefits will be?
Please, be forthcoming.
I doubt very much whether Johnson will ever be considered a "people's hero".
Patients whose lives depend on EU medicine start ‘death by Brexit’ campaign
metro.co.uk/2019/09/07/patients-whose-lives-depend-eu-medicine-start-death-brexit-campaign-10701834/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: www.facebook.com/MetroUK/
If you cut through all the chattering one thing remains:
The country voted to leave the EU
They did not vote to 'leave with a deal' and most want us to get out on 31st Oct.
Boris is fighting to honour democracy for the people while most of the MPs (and other remainers) are going against the will of the people.
Boris has certainly shaken things up, is brave and has no fear, unlike May. He has the people on his side and the MPs against him so may well in time go down as a 'people's hero'.
The media are widely reporting that one in three British manufacturing companies are now in the process of relocating to European Union member state countries, or in advanced planning stages of the same.
The finance industry is also in the same process with the staggering amount of eight hundred Billion pound being moved at the time of the last fiscal year-end.
Further to the above seventy five billion has been moved by the insurance industry in the last few weeks with more insurance finance to follow.
Perhaps the greatest threat to Britain is where these large manufacturing companies relocate to their suppliers are also following to maintain their links to these customers and ensure their own commercial survival.
Many hundreds of thousands of jobs are tied up in the United Kingdoms manufacturing industries and in the supply to those companies.
The tax take from the finance industry to the British government will be greatly reduced impacting on the nations ability to fund such things as education, welfare and state pensions.
However, not one leading brexiteer ever comments on this ever-growing situation, and leave supporters on forums such as this also refuse to make any remark. Instead, they continue to believe in some Brexit utopia despite all the mounting evidence. They stay with fingers in ears and heads in the sand.
How rediculas and stupid can it get
Media links to above:-
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/01/one-three-uk-firms-activate-plans-move-operations-abroad-no-deal-brexit-iod-survey
www.independent.ie/world-news/nearly-800-billion-of-assets-moved-to-europe-due-to-brexit-uncertainty-37688158.html
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-02/great-brexit-insurance-migration-shifts-75-billion-from-london
Thanks for that Granny, I know that, but David’s post clearly implies that it would be viable and acceptable if only people wouldn’t lie about what they voted. This attitude makes me extremely annoyed because it victimises people such as my 91 year old mother, who Jura and David clearly believe should be denied her medication. It’s nothing short of a warped mind that would have us live in a society where only the ‘correct’ political views are acceptable.
And it’s not all the fault of leavers, what’s going on now is the fault of Parliament.
maddyone the suggestion/idea came from jura2!!
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