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NO DEAL is the only way. The EU 'wrote' the WA Agreement.

(305 Posts)
Day6 Sun 01-Sep-19 17:11:59

and it ties us to the EU indefinitely.

The Irish backstop could be the least of our worries.

May's WA must be rejected completely. It is an incredibly complicated document leaving hardly a subject not covered, and everything in it has been designed to be beneficial to the EU.

I doubt if any MP has read it from cover to cover. Nearly every paragraph is cross-referenced to a Treaty, Regulation or Directive, and each one has to be looked up, read and understood before moving on. It takes hours.

So says John Ashworth in his article This EU-written Withdrawal Agreement is toxic from start to finish

It is a very revealing article, written by someone who has made an effort to link the words to the many treaties, acts and sub-paragraphs which determine the UK's role after a decidedly dodgy exit (or non-exit as it transpires) from the EU.

It is very worrying.

He concludes

During any transition period, we would not be classified as a ‘third country’, so although technically one could claim that we had left the EU, in practical terms, we *wouldn’t have done so – rather the opposite*

We would effectively be controlled by the EU to such a degree that we might just as well shut our Parliament down

We would finally become a ‘third country’ on 1 January 2023, as it is doubtful that the EU would consider an extension other than on the previous transition terms, which would essentially mean that we would still not have left the EU in any meaningful way

We would still be paying our ongoing fees, at full rate, to the EU. The EU would still control our fisheries and our armed forces and we would still be subject to the European Court of Justice, with our Parliament still essentially sidelined. No one in their right minds could want us to be in such a situation

We do not want Brexit in name only (BRINO) which is what the WA will give us, if our only request is the dropping of the backstop.

Boris, must be careful. May's WA is a non-starter. Farage, in waiting, understands that the WA has to be rejected - in full.

Day6 Sun 01-Sep-19 17:14:32

Sorry, one 'agreement' too many in the title.

mostlyharmless Sun 01-Sep-19 17:17:10

Oh don’t worry Day6. Isn’t Boris going to find “alternative arrangements” to avoid the Backstop? He’s got two or three weeks left before Merkel’s deadline.
Easiest deal in history isn’t it?

mostlyharmless Sun 01-Sep-19 17:23:14

This what Tory ministers have said about getting a deal:

Surely all those Tories weren’t lying Day6?

mcem Sun 01-Sep-19 17:25:25

'The Irish backstop could be the lesst of our worries'.
Typical of the 'I'm alright Jack' leaver.
Tell that to my friends in NI who are just a wee bit worried that the inevitable reintroduction of the border if there's no backstop will take them back to the time of the Troubles.

Then again I heard one commentator say that even if BJ & co sign up to an agreement with the backstop, they are such untrustworthy liars that they'll simply break the promise when it suits them!

Day6 Sun 01-Sep-19 17:31:33

I suspect there is not one MP who has read the WA completely. It is extremely complicated.

Ashworth writes:

Article 124 Specific arrangements relating to the Union’s external action

Part 6. During the transition period, the United Kingdom shall not provide commanders of civilian operations, heads of mission, operation commanders or force commanders for missions or operations conducted under Articles 42, 43 and 44 TEU [Treaty on European Union], nor shall it provide the operational headquarters for such missions or operations or serve as framework nation for Union battlegroups. During the transition period, the United Kingdom shall not provide the head of any operational actions under Article 28 TEU

"I looked up Articles 28, 42, 43 and 44 from the Treaty on European Union and it appears that during any transitional period, the EU would be able to make use of our forces but they would not be under British command. What a humiliation!"

Day6 Sun 01-Sep-19 17:33:54

If Boris accepts this agreement, we will have Brexit in name only.

Leaving with No Deal is the only way forward if the EU will not reopen negotiations. Brussels has told us to take it or leave it, have they not? hmm

notentirelyallhere Sun 01-Sep-19 17:34:09

Conservative woman Co. UK, wow, that would be a VERY unbiased article?!

varian Sun 01-Sep-19 17:36:46

BJ is certainly an untrustworthy liar. Wouldn't it be just brilliant if he suddenly Revoked Article 50 because he'd been lying all along that he wanted to leave?

Day6 Sun 01-Sep-19 17:38:45

Typical of the 'I'm alright Jack' leaver

Oh sneer away. You obviously haven't read my OP properly.

We are all aware the Irish backstop is a crucial part of negotiations. My family are Irish, so mcemstop insulting people who care!

What I have said is that we have many, many other things to worry about as well IF that (EU-beneficial) WA is accepted.

growstuff Sun 01-Sep-19 17:39:13

Wouldn't that be a piffling jolly jape? hmm

growstuff Sun 01-Sep-19 17:41:57

I've read your OP properly AND the article and I think it's rubbish. I wasn't going to write anything about it, but I'm just a tad irritated by being labelled a sneering "I'm alright Jack" leaver.

Rather than resorting to name-calling, do you have anything rational to write?

Day6 Sun 01-Sep-19 17:44:02

that would be a VERY unbiased article?!

And which pro-EU, left wing sources do Remainers use, pray tell?

One wonders if YOU have read the WA from cover to cover notentirelyallhere?

The fact remains (and Labour Leave and others have concerns) that the WA agreement May brought back ties us indefinitely to the EU. Brussels would still be able to determine the ways in which the UK moves on.

Still, parliament has rejected it three times. Boris cannot make it look acceptable again before October 31st, thank goodness.

No Deal or the WA are our options. The EU will not re-negotiate. Stalemate.

We look to our PM to break the deadlock and get us out of the EU.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 01-Sep-19 17:44:53

day6 what has happened to your posts? I’ve never agreed but honestly they are becoming a bit weird lately.

growstuff Sun 01-Sep-19 17:47:05

They do seem a tad desperate, don't they?

petra Sun 01-Sep-19 17:53:39

i doubt if any MP has read it cover to cover
Mark Francois has.
When the WA came out I was in agreement with it.
Mark Francois was on our local radio and read out the 'bits' ? that they didn't want us to know.

varian Sun 01-Sep-19 17:54:23

According to Day6 "No Deal or the WA are our options."

No Deal or WA are two options. The others are extend the withdrawal period, general election, another referendum or Revoke Article 50.

Dominic Cummings and his puppet politicians may like to restrict the options but as of today we still have all these options.

Our elected MPs should be able to chose which option they want and which options must definitely be ruled out.

Day6 Sun 01-Sep-19 18:11:41

day6 what has happened to your posts? I’ve never agreed but honestly they are becoming a bit weird lately

Oh good try Whitewave. More faux concern wrapped up as an insult.

Another desperate poster who will try to stifle any views s/he does not like.

I have merely brought your attention to an article concerning the lack of merit of May's withdrawal agreement.

You find that weird. Can you explain why exactly?

Could it be that you do not like the EU-beneficial WA being exposed?

I'll state again - Boris has to reject the WA. The only way forward to honour Brexit is to cut all ties with Brussels and to see the WA for what it is.

I am slightly reassured that Parliament is unlikely to accept it given they have already rejected it three times. The tweaking of the Irish backstop problem will NOT make the WA any more acceptable.

If he thinks he can pull off Brexit via the WA suddenly becoming acceptable, he is playing right into the EU's hands.

varian Sun 01-Sep-19 18:12:01

Despite having little time, MPs still have options for trying to block a no-deal Brexit.

growstuff Sun 01-Sep-19 18:29:00

Are you literally stamping your feet Day6?

Whitewavemark2 Sun 01-Sep-19 18:31:54

day6 that wasn’t false concern that was just a statement. I didn’t mean one particular post but your posts generally, they were previously never quite so out there and more rational somehow. But perhaps I’m mistaken

MaizieD Sun 01-Sep-19 18:40:35

I am slightly reassured that Parliament is unlikely to accept it given they have already rejected it three times.

But Parliament is not going to accept 'no deal', either, Day6. So where does that leave us?

Grandad1943 Sun 01-Sep-19 18:52:36

I believe that Johson has told the European Union negotiators that the Irish backstop had to be completely removed from the withdrawal agreement before any further negotiations could even begin with Britain.

I also believe that the EU negotiators have told Johnson that removal of the backstop could not happen as the European Union has to protect it's standards after Britain has left the EU.

So, as I see it, the only way the Theresa May Withdrawal Agreement can be placed back into the Negotiations would be if the Labour Party won a General Election. In that, Labour has stated they would " endeavour" to renegotiate parts of the Withdrawal Agreement but whether that process was successful or not, that outcome would be placed before the British electorate in a second referendum.

However, leaving with no deal would not be on the table during the negotiation or on the Ballot form in any referendum.

Therefore, the second referendum would be on the grounds of leave under the terms of of the withdrawal agreement or remain on the terms we have now

What's not to like?

mcem Sun 01-Sep-19 19:00:42

growstuff I'm not sure how to take your comment.
My 'I'm all right Jack' comment was directed specifically at Day6 as I find her dismissive comment about NI concerns unacceptable.
Glad I'm not one of her NI relatives.
Unlike some who came late to the crisis that is the border problem, I was concerned from the outset and that was one significant reason that I voted remain.

varian Sun 01-Sep-19 19:05:14

I think that many who voted Remain did think about the implications for Northern Ireland, but I wonder how many Leave voters ever gave it a moment's thought.