The yellowhammer documents

I suspect the results of Brexit will be more gradual. People will be worse off, as prices rise and people lose their jobs. Families will be dispersed and the UK will lose its position in the world

I agree - although I would add that I don't think the UK will exist any more. For the first time in my life I believe that Scotland will be independent (and back in the EU), and I certainly wouldn't rule out a unified Ireland.

Please explain GrannyGravy why exactly you think that an ability to trade with third countries on WTO terms or even any deal, will benefit the UK?

It will benefit individuals, such as Arron Banks, who has interests in African mines, the US, which is hanging around like a vulture for our food and healthcare market, and certain rich Russians (and some others), but ordinary folks won't see any tangible benefit.

Sadly, I think you are right, SirChenjin. England will, quite literally, be smaller than it has been at any time since the Middle Ages - and considerably less influential. We will be a funny shaped blob of land as part of an island of the coast of mainland Europe. England itself will be divided between London and the cities and outlying districts.

A London which voted to Remain, remember.

I am not an expert on international trade.

We all had one vote in the referendum, some chose one way, some the other and some just could not be bothered to get out and vote.

The Politicians are the only ones who can sort this out, not a bunch of "Grannies/Grandpas" on GN.

London and the cities voted to remain with good reason.

London is a vibrant city and will reinvent itself - as will some of the cities. They are already generally younger and more entrepreneurial than the declining small towns.

Actually, quite a few grannies and grandpas do have a good enough understanding of international trade to know of what they speak.

If you are not an expert on international trade, why do you trot out the myths from one side without considering them critically?

You must have some opinion on it though, given it was one of the key outcomes of Brexit - when you were thinking about how you would vote, you obviously gave it some thought.

I posted "expert" not that I had no understanding.

As a member of the politically illiterate elderly GG13 how did you vote? I think that the damage done will be blamed on the 'intransigent EU' Germany and France in particular to soothe the Little Englander section of the Brexit vote, the Labour party are already getting the blame in the HoC for not falling into the Johnson trap of a General Election, and a good few of the more desperate Tories are blaming the judiciary.

Great - so you have an understanding of the issues. Based on that understanding, what's your opinion on how trading with third countries on WTO terms or even any deal will benefit the UK?

Are you an expert in international trade then growstuff?
I think not.
What all should have done before the vote is to listen, read and give the matter some thought before voting.No doubt many did, and many didn’t, again on all sides.
We leave negotiating details to the government of the day, and the civil servants ( you don’t keep a dog and bark yourself, after all.)
Because Parliament has handled it poorly is no fault of the populace, and it’s high time all the blame and bile on social media realised that and wound their collective necks in!

No secret on how I voted GillT57, I had decided to vote remain until I found out that all five of our children and their partners were voting leave.

I done my own research on the workings of the EU, listened to ACs reasons and voted leave, as those who voted remain often post it is our AC and GCs future not mine so much.

Did I ever claim to be lemongrove? Really?

GrannyGravy has just admitted what many people have said all along, namely that people (and that's most of us) should never have been given a vote on something so complex and important.

How can somebody make claims about international trade then admit she doesn't know what she's talking about? Baffling!

What could Parliament have done differently?

How would you solve the issues in Ireland?

It was always an impossible task. I could never understand why May was so keen to take it on because it was obvious from the beginning that the Brexit people wanted could never be delivered. May is now a scapegoat for the inevitable.

growstuff. I said no such thing, your interpretation of my post is totally wrong!!

I said I was not an "expert". Governments and Companies employ experts in the appropriate field.

My husband and I have owned a "sales" company for over 38 years. We import from Europe and elsewhere.

You've no idea how trading with third countries on WTO terms or even any deal will benefit the UK, have you Granny. I suspect it didn't even enter your heard to consider that aspect of Brexit.

SirChenjin see my post of 13.33.50.

I don’t think there’s any point in explaining your point of view GG13 as the posters here just seem to want a good old rant, whatever’s is said.I have noticed the comments becoming ever more personal and snarly as time goes on, and reason goes out of the window.
May as well leave them to their echo chamber.

It’s rumoured that when Johnson read Blackswan - the real worst case scenario - he vomited. I think things might be getting a bit too hot for him.

lemongrove I am off for a nice latte and a freshly baked madeleine.

And that answers my question how...?

If anything, given that you own a "sales" company (completely off topic and genuinely curious - why the random quotes?!) you'll have a much better handle on the issue than the average Josephine Bloggs.

Many small towns were declining for many years before the referendum.

" . . too reliant on the EU, unable due to EU regulations to look elsewhere for better trade deals." That sounds, GG13, as though you may think that we can only sell to the EU, and buy only from them. If that is your impression, no, it is not true. We sell to all the countries that the rest of the EU does, and buy from all the countries that they do, under the terms that the EU has negotiated - which are far better trade deals than we could achieve on our own.

Why should any country or trading bloc give us a better deal than they would to a vast organisation like the EU, a much bigger market for import and export than the UK? Each separate deal that we make with each of those countries or blocs will be less to our advantage than what we have in place up until 31st October.

When we leave, prices of incoming goods will rise, and the prices we get for exports will fall. That doesn't need an expert in international trade to predict, it is obvious that if there are customs duties on goods, they have to be paid.

maizie been out walking and just read your post about Black Swan.

Do we have any details about it?