Why are "Leavers" so angry?

Really growmore? It was happening even before the UK joined the EU

Maybe so, but we didn’t have a minimum wage or ‘living wage’ then.

I still think it’s shocking.

Sometimes on tv a small business owner will come on and say ‘my business couldn’t survive if I had to pay xxx in wages’ and my immediate thought is always ‘ought you to have a business then dear?’

Profitability ought to have a moral base, in my opinion. And before any of you bring up big business malpractice such as Thomas Cooke where the fat cats have helped themselves to millions - well, two wrongs don’t make a right. Pointing the finger at other malpractice is just fudging.

40 new hospitals - where on earth are we going to get the staff?

BTW Leaving the EU won't stop it because agencies will recruit more people from the Phillipines and other places with a low cost of living. I

Of course it won't stop. It was just a brilliant meme (in its original sense) to get people stirred up with anti-EU feelings.

An awful lot of passion has been stirred. I hate displays of anger and aggression but a lot stems from frustration. We are supposed to live in a democracy - there was a vote - the result was to leave and it hasn’t happened. If we don’t leave our system will be changed forever. People in high places and with money think that they can do what they like regardless of the will of the people. The way our politicians are behaving at the moment is dreadful in the main. What example does this set for young people. I could go on but don’t want to become one of the angry people!

BTW Leaving the EU won't stop it because agencies will recruit more people from the Phillipines and other places with a low cost of living. It was happening even before the UK joined the EU and will, no doubt, continue.

Andrew Marr, just now 'you are playing with fire'

re the use of language having an 'effect out there'.

'I think I have been a model of restraint' and 'the use of the word humbug was meant to be about the surrender act' - the dishonesty of the man is unbelievable.

A number of employers have been employing Eastern European workers below the minimum wage.

There are a number of loopholes, such as charging for board and lodging and not paying for travelling time.

One of the biggest loopholes is paying agencies, who recruit in other countries, where the cost of living is lower. I've forgotten what the law is called, but employers are allowed to pay "local" rates, even if a worker works abroad. Agencies can get away with paying their workers at Eastern European rates, which are obviously a lot lower than the UK.

The government could have cracked down on the practice, but didn't seem that bothered, because employers make more profit.

Dinahmo ( a couple of pages back). I have no problem with remain minded people wanting to campaign to return to the EU. However, I do believe that since the vote was to leave the EU, that needs to be enacted first. It is not democratic to attempt to overthrow that decision and "Remain". It is also an insult to all those people who voted to leave. We did so in good faith. Remain minded people are really acting badly in that. That also leads to anger and frustration on the part of those in the majority who voted to leave. It is certainly part of the problem for me.

In 1975 the vote was to stay in the "Common Market" as it was called then. I am sure many, had they known the outcome would have voted differently. I did not vote then. I could not. I did vote when we had a referendum this time. I voted to Leave. I expect, even demand, if that is not a strong word here, to have my decision together with the majority of those who voted to be acted upon.

If remain minded people still want to go back to the EU afterwards, they are quite at liberty to continue to campaign to return. They may have to change their name to "Returners" as opposed to Remainers.

No one in 1975 attempted to over turn a referendum vote. I don't think it would have crossed anyone's mind to do so. Even if the vote had only been a result of one person , I think we all understood democracy so well that we would have accepted that. It was the vote of the majority. Those who did not like it accepted it. Of course they continued to campaign to leave but that is their democratic right.

The difference here is that remain minded people are not willing to let the will of the majority be done. That is a complete change in politics from 1975. That remain minded people even think that they should be allowed to challenge and change that decision before it is implemented is a change in thinking. That remain minded people want to use the law to stop a democratic decision is a change in thinking. That also makes me angry.

I have no argument with any remain minded person who wants to campaign to return to the EU. But first we must leave. I do not think that it is acceptable that remain minded people want to stop the decision. That is wrong.

If we take this to general politics and General Elections, then from now on, any time I do not like the result of the General Election, I should be able to say I do not accept the vote and I want to see it overthrown immediately. I want to see it stopped. I don't want the elected government to take power. You would probably ( and rightly) laugh at me. But that is what remain minded people are attempting to do with in stopping the us leaving the EU.

Of course I can say what I like and campaign for what I want , just as remain minded people can say what they want and campaign for it, but in the scheme of things, when we elect a government we do not immediately try to over throw them just because our political views are different.
I have to wait for another election and that enough people will agree with me. I cannot demand an immediate second election before the result of the first one has been implemented. In fact, at the moment, we have five year parliaments and I would have to wait five years to get my chance to challenge that election decision and make my vote again.

In my life I have lived through many long and challenging times when the government has not been the one I voted for and I have wanted to see it changed but I have not tried to overthrow the democratic will. NO one has , at least until now. I have always accepted that the majority vote had the right to make the decisions and I have abided by them.

I think that when we start to overthrow decisions we come close to revolution. There is always a lot of anger in a revolution.

leaving the EU will probably deal a blow to businesses that employ large numbers of low-paid agency workers

Providing the wage level is legal, surely any person would take a job?

However I think some small businesses ought not to be trading if their staff aren’t properly remunerated. Is it morally right to employ someone on an improper wage so that your business can stay afloat? I don’t think so!

It beggars belief that some employers expect people to work for them when they wouldn’t like their own family members to work for that amount!

If the EU migration supplies an army of workers willing to work for less than locals (who have high mortgages and childcare to pay for) then that’s NOT a level playing field and I for one am glad it’s coming to an end.

Problem is, Joelsnan, as you should be well aware from reading these 'discussions', that words can be interpreted in many different ways.

It is, I think, incumbent on a politician not to use ambiguous language. You are interpreting that phrase as a metaphor because your bias takes you that way, and you're using an implied 'any reasonable person' rhetorical device to denigrate anyone who interprets it differently. But I'm sure all of us are well aware there are plenty of folks out there who are happy to interpret it literally.

Are lemongrove and love0c joined at the hip?

Do you have any constructive comments lemongrove?

What on earth on you on about love0c? Have you actually read WOODMOUSE's link and my response?

WOODMOUSE supports Brexit and posted a link, which I read and think is very interesting and valid. I just wish more discussion was at that level.

I fail to understand your sneering comment directed towards me, unless you are trying to sabotage serious debate.

I think a lot of people need to take one love0c so I hope there is a large box of them.
I really think posters need to calm down and choose their own words carefully....never mind the politicians.
Civil unrest is caused by anger, yes, but also hysteria about what may happen, so anyone ramping up either is adding to the prospect of it happening.

I think those who cannot differentiate the intent of the sentence ‘taking a knife to’ as cutting capacity or causing physical harm need lessons in comprehension or is it just to try to cause outrage?

Growstuff, take a chill pill!

Someone else choosing their words very carefully is Johnson.

He is now talking of riots, unrest and potential killings in the streets, in order to invoke the Civil Contigencies Act 2004, which gives the government special powers. This would enable him to side step the Benn Act.

But of course we all know it is project fear he has embarked on.

Leavers are very good at spotting that aren’t they?

crystal Farage’s language isn’t acceptable, but make no mistake he chooses his words very carefully.
Remember how he had a go this year at Jo Brand?

Hypocrisy.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to why it is acceptable for Farage to talk about “knifing” civil servants?

For those not averse to reading long links, the full report is even better:

eprints.lse.ac.uk/90393/1/Kaldor_Brexit_Report_Mansfield_2018.pdf

I just wish national politicians would take heed.

WOODMOUSE Thank you so much for posting that link to the research about Mansfield. I haven't been able to sleep, so I used the time to read it properly.

I was particularly interested in this paragraph:

Due to the restrictions that are likely to be placed on the free movement of labour, leaving the EU will probably deal a blow to businesses that employ large numbers of low-paid agency workers, some of whom are immigrants. However, this does not mean that the activities of these businesses will be automatically replaced with better-paid and more satisfactory jobs for the local population. On the contrary, Brexit in itself will solve none of the underlying structural problems of Mansfield’s economy, and may actually exacerbate some of the challenges that high value-added firms face in the area, especially by reducing their ability to find skilled workers. Moreover, the EU currently provides a core part of the funding for regional development policies in the Mansfield area, subsidising precisely the types of activities that can promote development along a higher value-added path, such as training and start-up support programmes. As a net contributor to the EU budget, the UK will in theory have the means to replace those programmes, but in practice, the British government’s historical reluctance to fund stable, long-term regional development programmes with a strong role for local stakeholders in the planning and implementation stages, creates reasons for concern.

That just about sums about how I feel about Brexit. Unfortunately, a whole load of twaddle has been written, but I (and many others like me) do recognise genuine concerns.

However, I don't think Brexit will improve the situation in these areas and could make it even worse. I don't think any of the political parties have really got a grip on what's going on, so I fully understand the frustration with Westminster politics. I can understand why people blame the EU, although I don't accept that the blame is always justified.

In my ideal world, Article 50 would be revoked and politicians would sit down with real people, as they did in the research project, and come up with some real local-led ideas for regeneration of de-industrialised areas. Brexit is currently a distraction from the real issues. As your document highlights, there is absolutely no guarantee that EU funding in areas such as Mansfield will be replaced. Given how much Brexit is costing, it's more probable that there won't be any spare cash for regeneration projects anyway.

So thank you WOODMOUSE for the link. I agree that everybody should read it with an open mind.

Not at all hot and bothered lemongrove.

BTW Are you ever going to make a constructive comment on a thread?

Urmstongran
I have PMd you.

Day6 Your reply to the post in which I commented "whenever a real fact is posted, or a link to a primary source for something that has been misunderstood by those who want to leave, there is a deafening silence from 99% of them" began by repeating that paragraph accurately, then saying -

"Well, in truth, you do have to be stirred up to reply in depth, with sources and references to articles etc. Sometimes I look, think, "that Remainer argument can be countered" and then think, "Nah"....I just cannot be bothered. . . ."

So I didn't understand why you don't get my point, and it is not surprising that I then went on to explain that quoting a primary source such as the text of, for instance, an EU Directive or an Act of Parliament is not an argument to be countered, something that can be disagreed with, it is stating a concrete fact. There seem to be a lot of people around who can't distinguish a concrete fact from a rumour invented by a bored journalist in need of a sensational headline

From Starmer today:

'“Whipping up the idea of riots or even deaths if we do not leave the EU on 31 October is the height of irresponsibility,” he said. “But it is also pretty obviously being orchestrated. If this is part of a government plan to misuse powers under emergency legislation, I can assure the prime minister we will defeat him in court and in parliament.”'

It is good that the vast majority of decent, broad Church Toris, and other parties and leaders, are fully aware of what is happening- concocted by Cummings and co, with Farage's 'cooperation'.

WOODMOUSE- I am afraid that some Leavers are posting stuff which is, I'm afraid to say- just plain wrong- about EU rules, etc. I for one will always try to remain polite, but I will not let falsehoods go unchallenged with the truth and facts.

There are currently very dark forces at work- the likes of which this country has never seen - Cummings, Farage and many others are in charge and hold the dark cards- for dangerous ends. Hyperbole - for sure not.