33 days to go .... What’s the Brexit plan?

Joelsnan Fri 18-Oct-19 17:11:43

I agree that outsourcing and one or two arms-length employment has been devastating to many. Add to that the increase in the gig economy and the hidden unemployed and underemployed and the least we need is as many companies as possible complying with legislation which can be tightened up for other workers. The loosening of employment laws just means more of the worst.

I am sure there will still be employers who give their employees a day off at Christmas and a goose for their meal but most people would rather there were laws not just the whims of their employer. That is what the Brexiteers want to get rid of. No laws means anyone can behave like Sports Direct.

Gracesgran
That certainly is not what Brexiteers want. They want to hold governments accountable at a local level.
Because many EU countries offer employment benefits much lower than UK, they can attract many ‘profit driven’ industries and because of EU competition laws UK is unable to lower their tarrifs to gain work whilst maintaining worker conditions. You may note a number of EU companies have NHS and local government contracts won because they offered a cheaper service, then on taking over the contracts they reduced employees Ts & Cs.
Companys such as SportsDirect and their agencies can also blackmail UK staff to accept what we consider as poor work conditions because they know they can bring plane loads of Eastern European employees to take their jobs because the pay and conditions are worse in their home countries.

MaizieD
^Actually, Joelsnan, your post at 15.30 is such a distorted view of labour relations and legislation over the past few decades that I can't be bothered to argue the toss with you about it.

I'm just amazed that you should think that the tories would do anything at all to retain or improve workers' rights when they've done their best over the years to get rid of them^

Your prerogative to disagree, however as you have no knowledge of my understanding and application of labour and employment law for you to be able to make any reasoned argument, I understand your frustration.

When you say Brexiteers, Joelsnan, do you mean those in the Brexit Party or the neo-liberal Tories?

I have never heard Johnson, Rees-Mog or any of the neo-liberals say anything like you are suggesting (a link would be great if you believe they have). The have compared our future to Singapore and praised a system which would move to an exceptionally business-friendly environment with low or zero corporation tax, low wages, the weakening of trade unions, few welfare provisions and a significant temporary migrant ‘non-citizen’ workforce estimated at around 30 per-cent of the total workforce which would be largely without the protection of national labour laws or access to welfare provisions.

Joelsnan in regard to your above posts, EU legislation is far more balanced in regard to employer-worker relations much of which does not apply to British employees

Tory governments while power have brought forward numerous Parliamentary Acts that prevent British workers protecting their terms and conditions. If we look at only one of those Bills perhaps you would care to comment.

The John Major Government brought forward legislation that further prevented employees from taking joint action should their terms and conditions be changed by their employer which they are opposed to.

That legislation dictates that a secret postal ballot must be carried out by a trade union but the ballot count and the result must be handled under the auspices of the electoral reform Society. Should that result be in favour of industrial action then a fourteen day "cooling off" period must be applied before any action can be carried out.

However, for that "cooling-off period" to commence the names of all those who have voted in favour of that industrial action must be supplied to the employer and then the fourteen days can begin.

in the above, the employer has two weeks to "pick off" any worker he wishes or line up agency labour to replace those the employer knows will be involved in the industrial action.

So, in short, no matter how justified a grievance may be, an employee can tick the support box in what he or she believes is a secret ballot, only to find that a few days later that persons employer is aware of exactly how he/she voted and then has two weeks to carry out whatever action that employer sees fit to bring against them

Therefore Joelsnan, do you or any other forum member believe that the above legislation is "balanced" in regard to fairness between employers and employees.

The above is purely British trade union legislation that is not implemented or upheld by any other European Union member nation.

Goodness, our MPs have been busy today. Apparently there are talks of a split at the top of the Brexit Party between NF and Aaron Banks. The former says her can't support Johnson's deal while the latter has backed it. They BPL is holding an event tonight to which a couple of a DUP members are attending and speaking. NF is setting out his reasons for his opposition. The Brexit Party Limited and the DUP are trying to put some pressure on Tory MPs to oppose the deal.

You couldn't make it up could you (I didn't, it was being reported on C4 News and Sky.)

Very very dirty tactics going on ...

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/john-barron-backs-deal-to-keep-no-deal-on-the-table-1-6329848?fbclid=IwAR3MShXiYzjnV0zPRcyCEQ2J71KuTokqwFHQVJpEgj93AXBJfdLI7jrVPS0

That seems to be at the root of Oliver Letwin's amendment tomorrow is about I think Varian. If it goes through.

Interesting article in the Huff Post
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/how-oliver-letwin-could-go-from-zero-to-hero-among-brexiteers_uk_5daa0674e4b0422422c48755?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABhGHfyQ1YJZ5hdCpYy7h_2GsTM3KqyWbPXJWi0WmiUAm9ngVG93ix5SIrh-mVwgIB7FyBv8JrMlO1zaDP6tDoUeBZztWvylVR20RvinHYTos1qwktge2AhpSN5h7VTfbUcvGLr7OKOaHl7XqQkmNBsbpdemjFyboYSk-H40ij4g

Grandad
I think employees are far poorer for the lack of effective union support however the action of the militant unionists in the late 70s and Yuppy 80s brought about the legislation you talk of when there were numerous wildcat strikes and demarcation issues that was bringing industry to its knees. The new tech industries who were emerging at this time paid well and had decent Tcs & Cs and their employees didn't feel the need for unions often regarding them with derision. These people saw the unions as obstructive and run by left wing radicals so it was easy for a government to introduce the cooling off period legislation with little problem.
The trouble is the unions are now in such a weakened state as to be ineffective and the Labour MPs are now more bothered with supporting the Proletariat in the EU whose whole objective is profit over people as is clearly shown in the positioning of industry within EU countries where workers rights are the poorest. HR departments often do little to correctly balance the needs of the employer/employee and are often complicit in enabling poor employee relations.
There will be a post Brexit opportunity. It is up to employees to grasp the opportunity to get rid of agency working, zero hours and gig working.
Those who say Tories talk of downgrading Employment laws post Brexit should just vote them out of office, I think we just about still live in a democratic country.

Thanks for your post Grandad1943 it was kind of you to take the time to clarify.

I do recall however that my overtime worksheet was brought to the attention of H.R. (not called that these days I daresay). It was explained to me that 48 hours was the maximum working hours allowed. I was disappointed but didn’t look it up or challenge what they said as I assumed they knew the score. I was under instruction to abide by this rule and of course I complied.

It was actually at the time a newish ruling. None of the overtime workers had ever heard of it back then. Maybe certain exemptions were brought in at a slightly later date. I have no idea. I just got told it wasn’t allowed, end of!

Joelsnan, in regard to your post @21:10, today, I would agree that in the forthcoming General Election there will be an opportunity to redress the balance of employer-employee relationship.

However, it should be remembered that the trade unions retain membership of over six and a half million members despite thirteen legislative acts being placed against them in the years between 1979 and 1997. Indeed, In the last twelve months membership has shown definite signs of rising, so who knows what the future holds for that movement.

However, undoubtedly the reason why working people have not joined trades unions in recent years is for the simple fact that they are aware that those unions are so hampered by such legislation as I laid out in my post @19:44 today that they are unable to adequately protect them.

In that above post, I asked you Joelsnan if you believe that the legislation that dictates the releasing of how individual employees voted in secret industrial action ballots is then compulsory forwarded to their employers was fair and justified, you have not replied to.

I await that reply.

To conclude, our Business due to Brexit opened an office in Belgium just three weeks ago. In that, I can assure you that employee protection legislation is far stronger in that country than here in Britain, and I believe the situation is similar in many other European Union member states.

But in Spain Grandad1943 wages are lower than here. I don’t think (correct me if I’m wrong) that there is a minimum wage.

Great, the NHS will be saved from shortage of doctors- we can go back to the safe practise of making young doctors 140 hrs a week - wonderful. (and bonne chance too)

And what is Sir Oliver Letwin up to now then? The dewhipped Tory MP who has been happy to help the HoC seize control of the order paper to ram through awkward legislation, has put down an amendment that could prevent Boris from being able to put his deal to a vote “unless and until implementation is passed”.

This move seems to be driven by the fear that the deal could be approved, thereby exemping the Government from having to seek a delay, only for the bills that would give it legal effect to be thrown out, and setting the UK on course for a no-deal from October 31.

By denying Boris a vote on his deal this Saturday, he would be legally forced to seek a delay.

Gosh it’s hard going trying to keep up!

Most DUP voters will never change their vote as there is no other unionist party with enough support to make much difference in Northern Irish politics.

But the European election result suggested that a number of voters are gravitating towards the anti-Brexit, centrist party Alliance, which represents both unionists and nationalists.

But losing support at home is hardly the DUP’s biggest electoral problem.

If the Tories win a strong majority at the next general election, then Boris will no longer have need for their support – and the bombastic protestations of unionists in Northern Ireland will once again fade to a dull hum in Westminster.

Grandad
In that above post, I asked you Joelsnan if you believe that the legislation that dictates the releasing of how individual employees voted in secret industrial action ballots is then compulsory forwarded to their employers was fair and justified, you have not replied to

I think you will find in the link provided the information you require. Employers are notified by unions of employees who do take strike action. This is to enable deductions from salaries for time taken off for the strike and cannot be used for any other reason. Any company found to be taking punitive action could be liable for employment tribunal action.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/594781/Code_of_Practice_on_Industrial_Action_Ballots_and_Information_to_Employers.pdf

Grandad
This may answer your question without wading through the whole document.

Ensuring secrecy of voting
44.Any list of those entitled to vote should be compiled, and the voting papers themselves handled, so as to preserve the anonymity of the voter so far as this is consistent with the proper conduct of the ballot.
45.Steps should be taken to ensure that a voter’s anonymity is preserved when a voting paper is returned. This means, for example, that:
 envelopes in which voting papers are to be posted should have no
distinguishing marks from which the identity of the voter could be established;
and
 the procedures for counting voting papers should not prejudice the statutory
requirement for secret voting

Joelsnan, in response to your post @23:14, today, you do not make reference to the act your paste was taken from. However, I believe that it was the original Margaret Thatcher legislation making postal ballots compulsory so how each employee voted would not be known to fellow workers.

That legislation is still in being. However, the John Major legislation encompassed that act but brought forward the provision of the "fourteen day cooling off period" and that all who voted in favour of industrial action must be provided by the trade union representing the workers to the employer.

It is getting late now, but I will paste links to the above legislation when I finish work tomorrow.

In the meantime, you still do not state if you feel that the release of how workers have voted in industrial action ballots is fair and just?

Keir Starmer
@Keir_Starmer

Today is not just about whether a ‘Johnson’ deal gets over the line. It’s about the political future of our nation. We have to defeat him so that our values of internationalism, peace & human rights can win.

Joelsnan, I have just done a quick search prior to going off to the office and the amended legislation regarding industrial action is contained in this Act of parliament I believe.

Entitled the "Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992."

Link to act can be found here:-
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/contents

A headline in today’s DT

Commentary Priti Patel
Imagine what we can achieve in the future if we get Brexit done
Where do we start?

Faff around for 3 1/2 years losing jobs and hitting the economy where it hurts?
Neglect many vital issues such as knife crime, homelessness and the problems of UC?
Curry favour with the US and Trump who frankly doesn’t give a monkey’s?
Go round in ever decreasing circles until some front benchers disappear up their own fundament?
Reveal the feet of clay of those supposed to be leading the country??
Divide the country , creating a hostile and even toxic atmosphere where politicians are subject to death threats and personal attacks?

Answers on a postcard!

It should be obvious, but I failed to say, this was not the substance of her article!

If Letwin passes then the Government motion will be pulled. This just seems to mean that the Government motion with the Letwin amendment will go forward. I think. I think too there is a stamping of feet because parliament has asked to see the detail before it passes the bill and to stop us dropping out with no deal.

Do you think they could feel unconfident for their motion getting through.

So parliament has stated that the agreement must be given sufficient time for proper scrutiny.

Sensible and desirable