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This Country has gone too far to the right

(118 Posts)
Grany Fri 04-Oct-19 09:48:02

Not just politics but the the newspapers we read also add to it with mainly a right wing bias. For example in Norway there is a high-degree of media ownership fragmentation, they are sometimes owned by not-for-profit foundations and all receive state subsidies based on circulation, which in turn ensures a modicum of objectivity and plurality of opinion. Their British counterparts are often highly partisan and espouse a largely right-wing editorial agenda. In contrast, British media ownership is highly concentrated: 70% of national newspapers are owned by just three companies and a third are owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News UK.

It is probably not without reason that a recent report by the European Broadcasting Union found that the United Kingdom among all of the EU member-states (+Albania, FYROM & Turkey) scores the lowest in levels of trust in written media.

Conservatism was doing OK One Nation Conservatism as it was called. Until Thatcher with New Right neoliberalism which has got progressively and steadily worse putting the wealth into already 1% rich hands and forgetting everyone else. Public services now gone to pot with tax cuts to big corporations who should be paying their fair share instead, money into public services.
Now the Nordic countries are doing good they have social-democratic Labour polices

And this is not only the case in Norway, but has been integral to the social-democratic post-war consensus in all the Nordic countries. Judging by almost any measure of social indicators these policies have been a success, the Nordic region enjoys some of the world’s highest living standards and presumably should be a model to be emulated rather than avoided. Obviously the Nordic region is no earthly paradise and there are cultural, economic and historical differences between the UK and Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden, but if there is such a thing as a ‘best practice approach’ in public policy the Nordic model would probably be it and, at any measure, a useful benchmark for Britain to move towards.

So remember that neoliberalism is failed economics an ideology, austerity is not needed. All parties who follow this failed economic neoliberal model are moving in the wrong direction and is not good for the whole of this country.

This explains things a lot.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/jeremy-corbyn-mainstream-scandinavian-social-democrat/

aprilrose Sun 06-Oct-19 15:35:54

What I do fail to understand is how you can assert these freedoms are left wing but at the same time decree that the left wing are controlling and fascist.

Human rights are not freedoms. They are political constructs and as such become controlling of freedom - certainly of freedom of speech. That is the right to say what you want . Now if you speak a fact that infringes someones "Human Rights" you can end up in prison or at the least losing your job.

aprilrose Sun 06-Oct-19 15:59:31

If they are things like the NHS this was a socialist creation. If the state education system this was a socialist creation. The pity is the other institutions such as rail and water are no longer under socialist control and ownership. And essentially that is what socialism is people controlling and running things and the profits being ploughed back not lining some fat cat's pocket

Interesting, I have been accused of not understanding the difference between human rights and freedom, yet this shows a distinct lack of understanding of the term "institution"

Institutions are not things like the railways ( which were orginally built for profit and are not socialist at all. It was a post war Labour government that turned them into that.

Indeed the Welfare State, of which the NHS was a part, together with a new free education system and a social security system were a political construct, not an institution.

Institutions have a longer history. They might be seen as the glue that holds a society together. Things like family might just make it into institution. Although the things you lump together they might be reflected in things like health care they are really more a set of norms and values around which a society forms and agrees.

They are cultural in terms of being the mores and ways of the people and they grow naturally.

They are not political impositions like modern day "equality", "diversity" and "multiculturalism". I think those three things have been the biggest divider of people in this country that we have ever known. If you really want to see where many of the divisions and problems arise - look no further than those three ideas. All are politically left wing.
All are ideas which stem from the view that culture and society must be engineered.

trisher Sun 06-Oct-19 16:14:44

aprilrose if you fail to actually name the "institutions" you regard as being more left wing you can't blame me if I speculate what they might be. As it is I remain totally baffled.
I think equality and human rights are basic requirements of any civilised society. They were defined by the UN in 1948, www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
been part of the USA constitution since 1787 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States
The UN date is particularly important as it marked the end of a period in history when human rights were completely under threat. If that is the sort of time you think was better I couldn't disagree more.

grapefruitpip Sun 06-Oct-19 16:21:36

How is the church left wing? How is same sex marriage left wing?

Hetty58 Sun 06-Oct-19 16:42:13

aprilrose, if 'equality, diversity and multiculturalism' are 'political impositions' and left wing (to you) it makes me wonder what you'd have instead?

growstuff Sun 06-Oct-19 18:24:22

Baker Days have been renamed trisher but they still exist, as does much that the 1988 ERA introduced.

For all its failings, the 1944 Education Act had a more profound effect on education than anything else ever has because it made secondary education compulsory for all. Before then, most children had no more than what was called an "elementary" education - the 3Rs, Religious Instruction and some practical skills, but not much else. That's why so many people of that generation still hold on to some idea that grammar schools are wonderful. They certainly were wonderful for those, who wouldn't have previously had a chance to go to such a school.

England does not have a uniform comprehensive system. Even in counties where there are no grammar schools, many comprehensives operate covert selection and are still, in effect, selective.

The education system is about much more than the way secondary schools are organised and, at its core, England still has a selective, elitist system. Crosland was going along with changes which were already occurring. Comprehensive schools (for good or bad) weren't a Labour initiative and the first comprehensives were pale imitations of the public and grammar schools with streaming, houses, gown-wearing teachers, etc. I taught in one of those schools in the 1980s. It still had two separate streams and staff who specialised in academic or non-academic pupils. We had to wear gowns for assemblies.

growstuff Sun 06-Oct-19 18:30:08

aprilrose I can assure that I do not know what "cultural Marxism" is. When I've tried to find out, I've just found a load of rambling mumbo jumbo. It would be helpful if you could explain.

However, you are the one who doesn't want to discuss with me, presumably because you are in your own mind censoring my opinions. Maybe you don't think they're worth anything grin. As it is, I'm putting you and your posts in the WUM box.

growstuff Sun 06-Oct-19 18:57:16

Did you used to have the username abbey by any chance aprilrose?

aprilrose Sun 06-Oct-19 19:39:35

No growstuff , I am not Abbey, but I remember Abbey. Funny how some people have to bring up other posters in the way you have. Isn't there a rule about mentioning posters who have left the site? Thats not nice.

aprilrose Sun 06-Oct-19 19:43:04

Trisher, your references to human rights in the United Nations and to the US constitution only support my comment that these are political constructions as both those documents have political origins. Thanks for the support there.

MaizieD Sun 06-Oct-19 20:35:32

I think you're making the rather strange assumption, aprilrose, that 'politics' has nothing to do with the way we wish to treat our fellow citizens, or, be treated by our fellow citizens.

MaizieD Sun 06-Oct-19 20:36:45

What's a 'WUM' box, growstuff? Is it similar to a WPB?

trisher Sun 06-Oct-19 20:39:03

Well aprilrose all I can say is that if you regard the human rights declaration made in 1948 as a political decision to be condemned I can only assume that the events which caused it in some way meet with your approval..
The 1944 act may have made secondary education compulsory for all *growstuff but it was only up to the age of 15.
I don't think I have argued that our education system is not selective in many ways, simply that the establishment of comprehensive schools was as radical in its day as introducing secondary education had been. How those schools choose to adminster their internal working has always been individual choice. It has always been a feature of the English education system that there is a degree of choice.
There was limited secondary education for poorer children before 1944 but it was selective and dependant on scholarships. Comprehensive education existed before Crosland but it was not widespread or general. Both measures changed education drastically but in my opinion providing a comprehensive education is more relevant today than a system which no longer exists in most of the country.

aprilrose Sun 06-Oct-19 20:40:53

aprilrose, if 'equality, diversity and multiculturalism' are 'political impositions' and left wing (to you) it makes me wonder what you'd have instead?

This is just my opinion from personal experience. Equality is an ideal. You cannot have it because people are not equal. Some have better brains, some have great athletic ability, time are good at maths and others languages. Some people have more wealth than others , better jobs etc. We are not all equal.

We could try and treat all people equally but that doesnt work either mainly because of the factors I mentioned above. Some have better access to legal authorities than others. Some have better homes than others. Some have better brains and can think their way through things than others. That creates more inequality. All societies have always had inequalities.

If you want to apply the ideal then you need to have us all living in identical apartments on uniform streets, all earning the same no matter what our job ( or no job) etc. You could do that. In fact that is the socialist dream. That we are all the same whether a doctor or a call centre operative. We all earn the same, get the same welfare benefits and live exactly the same lives. In fact we could all be allocated work according to the needs of society and no choices at all. They did that in China at one point. That would be equal but dull and not very pleasant if you are a skilled doctor and are asked to work in the sewage works whilst the person in the sewage works gets to practice surgery.

But I cannot see any motivation or incentive for living in a life like that. If we will all get the same , why bother to work at all. But I wouldn't have a choice. In socialism you do as you are told. In fact where I live I know many people on benefits who will say precisely that and have said it to me. That poor economic foresight on their parts because someone has to make the money that keeps them. But they have a point I think at times. That time is usually at 5:00 am when I am going out of the house and wont be back for twelve hours and I know that my wages are little higher than their benefits. Equality is an ideal but not very workable. There will always be people who can work the system whatever the system.

Diversity seems to me to be the opposite of equality. It seems to be a mechanism where people can trade their difference to gain advantage in society or the workplace. I know where I live those who come from minority groups often get better treatment or are pushed up the lists one way or another. I suppose it is no different to the old way of working where nepotism was rife. When my father started work for example, his brothers and father got him in where they worked. Today we dont do that. Instead we fill quota's with people who fit the bill by being from certain groups. Its not about ability , or how well you do the job, just are you one of the protected groups we need to give special consideration to. There is no equality in giving special consideration to others because they have some characteristic the majority do not have. I am not against people getting jobs regardless of colour, creed , race, gender or disability or whatever I have missed out there, if they can prove they are the best for the job. Otherwise it seems to leave many people feeling they have not been treated fairly ( let alone equally). I believe in a place where people get jobs, houses or anything else according to their abilities and needs, not some arbitrary characteristic.

Multiculturalism is a big thing with me. It has created so many divides where I live. There are no go areas around me. There are ghettos and enclaves of people who belong to one culture or sub culture. They live their own lives and I am supposed to accept it, yet, when I want to go and live somewhere with people like me I get told that is worng and I have to accept other cultures. I seem to have to be the one who has to change my ways for others. I know lots of people who have become very angry at this . That seems to be another inequality. It has been flash-point time most weekends with different groups meeting on the street and bust ups. A lot of it is fueled by the perception ( right or wrong and I know some would say it is wrong) that some groups are getting treated better than they are because those groups are given special treatment, better treatment, they are allowed to have their culture where others are not and so it goes on and on and people get angry with each other. Its all fueled by allowing too many differences and a victim culture. There seems to be nothing we share.

When there is a lot of competition and not very much to be had, people start to look closely at who is getting what. Equality is a fine ideal when there is a lot to go around. However, diversity and multi - culturalism are counterproductive to it when there is little. That's why it doesn't work for many communities, including where I live.

Equality, diversity and multiculturalism are fine media and political soundbites but they do not work.

What would I like instead? A world where despite all inequalities I could live, bring up my family and not have to be bombarded by the ineffective soundbites and politics. Somewhere I can be free. Free to do as I want ( as long as I do not commit murder) and to say what I think and not have to watch my words all the time.

Thank you for reading.

growstuff Sun 06-Oct-19 20:42:50

Maizie WUM = wind up merchant

growstuff Sun 06-Oct-19 20:47:27

The alt-right does seem to have a unique ability to produce absolute codswallop.

MaizieD Sun 06-Oct-19 20:49:38

Like an uninhabited desert island, perhaps, aprilrose?

growstuff Sun 06-Oct-19 20:50:58

The above post is a prime example of a definition of the fairytale which is "cultural Marxism":

"It allows those smarting from a loss of privilege to be offered the shroud of victimhood, by pointing to a shadowy, omnipresent, quasi-foreign elite who are attempting to destroy all that is good in the world. It offers an explanation for the decline of families, small towns, patriarchal authority, and unchallenged white power: a vast, century-long left wing conspiracy."

GracesGranMK3 Sun 06-Oct-19 20:51:11

You could live off grid like the preppers and some cults do aprilrose, but as soon as you live as part of a community, even a family, there will be rules supporting that group. All on your own in a desert seems to be the only realistic option, perhaps as a Stylite where you can expound your views to those who would listen?

grapefruitpip Sun 06-Oct-19 20:55:56

I know where I live those who come from minority groups often get better treatment or are pushed up the lists one way or another

That's disgustapating. Have you been pushed down a list?

GracesGranMK3 Sun 06-Oct-19 21:06:37

I have come late to the part on this one. Is this someone supporting some version of white supremacy?

MaizieD Sun 06-Oct-19 21:11:10

I've done a bit of googling 'cultural Marxism', too.

This set of posts from the reddit community took my fancy; particularly the opening post

Warning: contains bad language and interesting word constructions...

Hey guys, so I've been facing some problems discussing politics with my psychologist as she keeps "refuting" all my argumentations with really shitty nonsense that I don't even see how is possible to make sense in her head (the first day she came to me that nazis were leftwing and antifas were fascists). As it turns out I figured that all her "argumentations" come from that conspiration of the "cultural marxism". Unfortunately I wasn't aware of what that meant until some recent researches. Can someone indicate me some texts about the subject? Cuz I'm personally not quite understanding how the fuck such ideas can even make sense to anyone.

www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/7ogfol/cultural_marxism_for_dummies_help/

MaizieD Sun 06-Oct-19 21:12:58

I don't think we're quite sure what s/he is supporting, GGMk3. But the tories are a bit too left wing for them...

growstuff Sun 06-Oct-19 21:14:14

I don't know about merely "supporting … white supremacy" GracesGran. It seems more that she's "advocating" white supremacy as a policy.

growstuff Sun 06-Oct-19 21:18:19

Maizie My previous quote was from this article, which explains the origins of cultural Marxism quite well.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/19/cultural-marxism-a-uniting-theory-for-rightwingers-who-love-to-play-the-victim

It's a far right conspiracy theory, which is often used as a soundbite by the half-educated loons who inhabit alt-right social media.