A broken country?

"Titled "Brexit is a necessary crisis" it exposes the nature of the economy, the new relationship between capitalism to politics and the weakness of the state." (Thu 10-Oct-19 12:00:22)

I haven't read the article yet Dinahmo but I'm hoping it shows up one of my pet bugbears. I think one of the issues with capitalism is that the word covers both an economic system and a political one. This encourages people to think that if you don't have what they see as a capitalist government - Conservative in our case - then you will have something other than capitalism.

I believe some of the Nordic economic systems are referred to as 'social capitalism'. It is a bit like the difference between the very confusing "democratic socialism" which to me says the democratising of socialism and socialist economics (lots of voting ) and "social democracy" which to me means the socialising of both democracy and a capitalist economy.

Thank you for the heads-up. I will read it later. For anyone else who is interested, it's here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/09/brexit-crisis-global-capitalism-britain-place-world

To keep to the theme of the thread, I think that we are better off taking personal responsibility for our own advancement rather than a herd (or collective) mentality in which there will always be leaders and followers.
Followers will then simply do the bidding of leaders without forming or voicing their own opinions.
I was an adult in the 60s >> and can't remember a society where the ideal was to be a conformist.
One brother was engaged in policing the miners strike and I remember the electricity cuts but no food shortages, in fact, at one point there was a so-called butter mountain and

I think your memory isn't that accurate Gabriella.

...contd
and other foods were given to those on the dole or getting some benefits.
Although I lived on the outskirts of a large, Labour controlled City, we (I, my parents and siblings) were never reduced to living on the breadline and always had clothes, holidays (in the UK) and treats like new bikes and weekends away.
I certainly think that society at large has weathered the ups and downs of life since WW2, admirably well.
Society changes. Our outlook changes.
It's good to have an upheaval now and again as it calls a halt to complacency...IMV.

GG54 is another one confusing the over all 'feeling' of the nation's population with the personal.

And nobody is talking about 'conformism'. Consensus on common goals is something completely different.

(and she's confusing the 60s with the 70s?)

growstuff
You think, but you don't know.
FYI it's perfect, thanks.
Yours is a bit off.

I'm not confusing the 60s with any other decade. I lived it, I was in full time work.

I remember a shortage of salt at one point. The shops had very little and you had to be quick to buy any. I had a cash-and-carry card for my playgroup (it must have been the 70s, not the 60s), and there I spied enormous catering bags of it. I bought one, we filled small poly bags, and 30 or so mothers went home delighted.

Charming story Elegran

There has long been on this forum accusations that during the 1970s the trade unions dominated the Labour government of that time. In my experience of that period, nothing could be further from the real truth of the political situation and the relationship the trade unions had with the Labour government.

It was without doubt to the so-called "winter of discontent" that brought about the election of the Thatcher Conservative government that was to bring to an end consensus politics in Britain. I was at that time an HGV driver jointly supporting with my wife a family of three young children. The above dispute led to all like myself who were employed within a large road haulage company in Severnside being on strike for five full weeks.

In the above, the roots of that dispute lay in the employee/employer relationship structure that had peacefully prevailed in the industry for more than thirty years.

Following the de-nationalisation of the road haulage industry in 1951 wage negotiations, were carried out by way of a "Joint Industry Council" (JIC) which all the leading employers and Trade unions representing the industry would meet to set basic wages and conditions for all of the rapidly growing Haulage industry on an annual basis.

The above structure worked well from 1951 until 1979 with no major disputes whatsoever throughout the industry. However, problems in the middle east caused a rapid rise in oil prices which brought inflation into the British economy. In response to that, the Callaghan led Labour government applied enormous pressure to the representing employers on various industrial wages councils and JICs to not grant inflation matching wage increases. Therefore, it was seen that Callaghan wished the organised manual working population of this country to bear the full weight of bringing down inflation while others outside those large bodies of organised workers would bear no burden whatsoever.

That stupid strategy by a Labour government brought forward industrial action in our road haulage industry and many other industries. The leadership of the unions involved tried initially to stop that action breaking out, but as in our company employees being told they would have to accept a minuscule wage increase that was more than three percent below inflation brought about " unofficial walkouts" throughout the country which inevitably had to be made official by the union leadership due to the sheer size of the action(s).

As stated, Undoubtedly the above led to the election of Margaret Thatcher later that year. However, she was very clever in not placing the blame on the Labour Government who brought the situation about, but on the unions who were caught up in the genuine shop floor anger at the wage Council and JIC position of support for the government.

Her first legislation on taking office was to weaken the power of the Trade Unions and in that the ability of shop floor workers to protect their conditions. From that over the years we have witnessed the advance of minimum wage economizing, Zero Hours Contracts and the Gig Economy into our workplaces to the disadvantage of the weakest and the advantage of the wealthiest in Britain.

Therefore in my view and experience, it was not the trade union dominance of the Labour government of the late 1970s, but the lack of input and influence into that government's thinking and process that brought about the so-called "winter of discontent" that did so much to change the course of Politics in Britain.

The Miners Strike mentioned by some in this thread followed the "winter of discontent" more than two years later and solely involved the coal industry. Arthur Scargill personally called that action without a full ballot of all employed in the mines, and in that led those miners "as lambs to the slaughter" at the hands of the Thatcher government. Truly an awful dispute and time.

Brilliant description Grandad. It's amazing how long some choose to go on remembering the propaganda.

I suppose the people who "fall through the net" and can't quite embrace the utopia you speak of Gabriella are collateral damage.

60s >> means 60s onwards, for those who aren't up to speed.

I think we can safely assume most people, indeed all of us can keep up.

Must apologise, I was thinking re broken country as obviously Britain but Scotland being a part of this. Just to explain my posting a bit in answer to Paddyann, who is a supporter for a second referendum on Independence. For myself, we had it, people voted to stay with our neighbours and friends on these isles. Its done.Though the SNP have their own agenda. I personally don't want another referendum on anything. The first Scottish Independence referendum was bad enough and I never want to go through that again. Anyway, I will leave you to post content that you may feel is more relevant than my views. Good luck to all.

Far from it.
I have an extremely high pain threshold so the needle is ineffective.

Your post is all spot on but we have to keep our hope and sense of perspective. I too feel dismayed over the state of our country's politics, finances, law decisions, etc etc.
But I thank every day that I am fit and mentally able to follow the news and can have an opinion.
if nothing else, it gives us plenty to talk about.
Keep positive.

Fiachna I have English family from Southport to Devon and an English son in law and GD .I and the rest of the independence movement ..including Nicola Sturgeon who has an English granny have no intention of abandoning those families and friends
.All WE want is control of our own affairs ,to run OUR country ourselves insteadof living with the mess that Westmonster has made for centuries.The Independence movement is cross all sections of the community ,Labour for Independence ,Veterans for Independence ,Navy not Nuclear for Independence etc etc etc.After Indepndence you can vote for the aprty you always voted for because THEN and only then will they truly be Scottish Tories or Scottish labour and not just a branch office of the WM party who pull the strings .

Of course IF you are happy with the mess happening now thats your choice ..but think of the next generation and the one after and let them have the say that you and I never had in how our country is run .

60s >> means 60s onwards, for those who aren't up to speed.

No it doesn't. In this case 60s means "well I'm certainly not going to apologise for insisting I was right when in fact it was the 70s, so I will make another attempt at demeaning others. Honestly GG54, where do you get off with your sense of superiority? Rude or what.

anniebach I believe you no longer support Labour but previous to this decision you often stated that you had been in the party for many years.

I wonder then why confine your analysis of the 70's to striking workers and why your apparent dissatisfaction during those times did not lead you to resign from the Labour Party then.

Labour was in power (Wilson) during part of the 60's and 70's.

During that time, under Harold Wilson, the government:

Introduced the breathalyzer test

Liberalised laws on censorship, divorce, abortion, homosexuality

Abolished capital punishment

Created the Open University

made higher education more attainable for "working class" people

Introduced travel concessions for pensioners

Created new conservation areas

Created regional development areas and increased spending on regional infrastructure. In his book The History of the British Labour Party, historian Andrew Thorpe wrote that the period 1963 to 1970 produced "the most prolonged, most intensive, and most successful attack ever launched on regional problems in Britain."

Moved several government offices out of London, eg the Royal Mint and the DVLA, to Wales

So, not just striking workers.

No No No, there is no sense of superiority. The dear lady is superior and knows everything and is never hurt , nor does she have any doubts.

There we have it.

grapefruit

??The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Eloethan in regard to your post @18:51 today and on a lighter note, you spoke of Harold Wilsons time as Prime Minister who if stories are correct was the greatest pragmatist this nation has ever possessed.

He was famous for inviting the union leaders of the day to Downing Street in times of large industrial disputes for "Beer and Sandwiches" which often smoothed ruffled feathers.

However, what was not so well known was that close to Parliament there is a pub named the Marquis of Granby where Wilson would instruct his Labour ministers to meet the trade union leaders of any nationalised industry where he perceived that any given situation could escalate into a major industrial dispute.

It was often talked of in trade union organised workplaces during that time of the deals that were struck over more than a few pints and a pie, such were the times.

With these meetings taking place away from the glare of publicity, It was said that Wilson himself would often turn up at the pub and settle down with all and sundry. Often all would stagger merrily away with the deal in nothing more than their heads which they often had a job remembering exactly what that deal was next morning.

That was a very different world from today.

I think Wilson was a great prime minister, although he was apparently hated by left wingers (which I consider myself to be). I think it has to be acknowledged, though, that he achieved so much in the UK.

However, I do acknowledge there were things he and his government did that are, in my view, unsupportable. Agreeing to forcibly remove the Chagossians from their islands so that an American military base could be installed on Diego Garcia was a disgrace. I can only think that some sort of pressure was put on Wilson to accede to the US's demands. Its record of fomenting economic and political destabilisation would give most politicians pause for thought.

Wilson has been long gone but the deceit and manipulation continues to this day. Due to pressure from the US (as evidenced by Wikileaks), and despite the High Court eventually judging that the islanders should be allowed to return, it suddenly became vital that a "marine reserve" be established in the Chagos Islands. Once again the islanders have been prevented from returning to their home.

Sorry, I've gone right off the point.

Harold Wilson was good to me he created inflation at 25% - why good?.

Because interest rates peaked at 15% so it paid to borrow as much as you could . Then Thatcher came and spoiled it all, but by then house a had doubled in value and interest rates had halved.