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A broken country?

(236 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Wed 09-Oct-19 07:50:24

Looking at all the political threads, with their content so often one of complete and irreconcilable difference, it has occurred to me that we live in a very different country to the one we were brought up in.

Post war and for the subsequent decades, we lived in a society which largely accepted common goals such as attitude to extreme politics, the welfare state and its attitude to the unemployed and those physically or mentally disabled, or the attitude to people displaced by war or famine, etc.

We all had the same common goals. Where we differed was how we achieved these goals, which manifested in the political parties. Tories a largely centre right party, whose philosophical outlook was one of paternalism known as “one nation Toryism” and Labour, a centre left party whose philosophical outlook had been built and later expanded, on the recognition that the urban working class needed political representation, in order to represent its interests.

Both main parties largely accepted common goals, like those listed above, the difference was as I said how they could be achieved.

But now I would argue this system is rapidly breaking down, because we can no longer agree on what our common goals are.

Everything is in flux and under question.

This is resulting in huge divides, hate, and a parliament that reflects society at large which is so divided it can’t agree on the big issue of the day let alone carry on as a Parliament should with running the country. It seems paralysed.

I feel unsettled and dismayed at what is happening.

I can’t see a good outcome.

Gaunt47 Wed 09-Oct-19 15:15:15

UG - think I underestimated actually! But then I'm hugely cynical smile

Urmstongran Wed 09-Oct-19 15:00:57

Spot on Gaunt47!

Davidhs Wed 09-Oct-19 14:18:37

The closing paragraph perhaps has some reasoning

“Brexit is a necessary crisis, and has provided a long overdue audit of British realities. It exposes the nature of the economy, the new relations of capitalism to politics and the weakness of the state. It brings to light, in stunning clarity, Brexiters’ deluded political understanding of the UK’s place in the world. From a new understanding, a new politics of national improvement might come; without it we will remain stuck in the delusional, revivalist politics of a banana monarchy.”

Its the writer opinion I wouldn’t dismiss it

Gaunt47 Wed 09-Oct-19 14:15:36

Quite often I have a bet with myself as to how soon a thread about a non-Brexit topic will degenerate into a leavers vs remainers spat. I thought this morning on this thread it might take about 32/33 posts. smile

jura2 Wed 09-Oct-19 14:09:41

Telling us what you specifically don't agree with in the article might be a bit more 'enlightening', perhaps.

grapefruitpip- we have been asking again and again, for years now- and had very few answers, and none that stood up to scrutiny.

Davidhs Wed 09-Oct-19 14:00:59

The Guardian! I read what they publish, rarely do I agree

grapefruitpip Wed 09-Oct-19 13:50:59

Ok Lemon give me a line or two about the tangible gains that leaving the EU would achieve, not aspirations actual gains.

Good Luck with that.

jura2 Wed 09-Oct-19 13:46:58

they do a very good job of it themselves.

Davidhs Wed 09-Oct-19 13:40:11

Ok Lemon give me a line or two about the tangible gains that leaving the EU would achieve, not aspirations actual gains.

growstuff Wed 09-Oct-19 13:37:41

Interesting article in the Guardian David. The writer agrees with you:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/09/brexit-crisis-global-capitalism-britain-place-world

It's going to be more of a rollercoaster than Johnson's "few bumps in the road" before the UK finds its place in the world again … and you can bet anything that it's place won't be as powerful and influential as it is today.

Newatthis Wed 09-Oct-19 13:37:37

I think we have perhaps brought our children up to be lot more savvy than we perhaps were. Many people in the 50's and 60's settle for less but then again seem to have more.

lemongrove Wed 09-Oct-19 13:37:18

You are only hearing the few leavers that the press trawl for soundbites from davidhs and not the vast majority.
Vilifying leavers has become a boring pastime for some on GN.

Urmstongran Wed 09-Oct-19 13:34:34

Actually when I read about the state of some other countries I feel okay about ours! I’m happy living here anyway.
?

Davidhs Wed 09-Oct-19 13:32:56

Everything is emotional, the usual response from leavers is “we don’t want to be ruled by foreigners”, “ this is all their fault,” all sorts of aspirations, no hard ways we would benefit. “We will make Britain great again” well sorry guys much of our former glory has been flogged off to foreigners already.
If we are going to make the U.K. a great trading and manufacturing power there has got to be a quantum leap in public attitude

grandtanteJE65 Wed 09-Oct-19 13:31:30

I don't honestly think that the fact that there are more people in any country affects achieving common goals.

The fact that these are difficult to achieve today, is, I believe, caused very largely by the fact that political parties don't seem to state their goals very clearly and irrespective of which country you look at and which political party, none seem capable of actually doing once they are in office they things they promised in their election campaigns. This results in voters rightly feeling disappointed and perhaps deciding to vote for a different party in the next election.

Universities no longer apparently see it as part of their role to influence public opinion regarding ethical and moral views. Newspapers and magazines publish what they think will sell large issues, rather than adhering to an editorial line of thinking and at least attempting to report the news reliably.

All these factors and many others make it difficult to have common goals.

I agree that the world we grew up in contained many hide-bound or bigoted people who never heard any other point of view on politics, religion, racial questions etc than their own.

I certainly wouldn't want to see a return to that, but surely it should be possible for political and other organizations to state their aims clearly.

gillybob Wed 09-Oct-19 13:26:58

Can anyone tell me when we have ever been

A compassionate and tolerant Great Britain. And inclusive and creative Great Britain. An outward looking, respectful and dignified Great Britain. A progressive and fair Great Britain.

Not in my lifetime.

growstuff Wed 09-Oct-19 13:24:49

I actually don't agree with the OP anyway because I don't think all the people in a country have ever had common goals. I certainly remember my grandparents thinking the "working classes" didn't deserve handouts and they never used the NHS because they thought it was for "poor people". They grumbled very loudly about "socialists" and paying more taxes. I think they'd have fainted if they'd ever had to communicate with somebody with brown or black skin or if any of their family had turned out to be gay or had a child out of wedlock.

growstuff Wed 09-Oct-19 13:20:23

How patronising lemongrove. I read the OP very carefully and I still think most people (whether immigrant or not) just want peaceful lives with not too much aggro.

growstuff Wed 09-Oct-19 13:18:35

I really don't understand why people who leave decision making to others think they have the right to vote for change such as Brexit.

Please, please, please could I vote to make myself healthy and wealthy and get somebody else to sort it? I'm sure I could get enough people to vote for my well-being if they're not responsible for how it could be achieved.

lemongrove Wed 09-Oct-19 13:18:29

growstuff of course everyone wants the things you mention but those things have nothing to do with the goals mentioned by the OP. I suggest you read the OP carefully.

grapefruitpip Wed 09-Oct-19 13:17:17

Most of us are, like it or not, looking out for ourselves

Not all though, Thank God.

growstuff Wed 09-Oct-19 13:14:33

I agree David. In over three years, I'm still waiting for a reasoned argument. Even toddlers don't stick to their guns about something they don't fully understand for quite so long.

growstuff Wed 09-Oct-19 13:12:37

All the EU citizens I know have very similar goals to the average Brit. They want somewhere safe to live, food in their stomachs, the opportunity to have a bit of a laugh and maybe sex. They want to feel they lead useful lives, have a bit of money to buy themselves and their families a few treats …

How are they different?

Davidhs Wed 09-Oct-19 13:07:26

Not just factory workers it impossible to get any reasoned argument from any leavers, they just want out of EU and to hell with the consequences.

growstuff Wed 09-Oct-19 13:07:14

Ooops! I meant "a budget surplus".