For Remainers Only

The House of Commons voting was the best outcome possible in accepting the withdrawal bill for second reading and then rejecting that the whole Act should be put through parliament in three days.

However, once again Johnson is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in not accepting the MPs demand for more time to debate the proposed legislation.

Programme Motion government looses 308/322

329/299 to the house agrees to the Second Reading.

Beth on Sky has been told the DUP is going to vote against the Programme Motion.

I didn't realise Johnson has said he will pull the motion and go for a GE IF the EU decide to extended to January 31st. He seems to have left himself some wriggle room.

And that is exactly what I don't understand Barmey! We had a referendum, we voted to leave, and that democratic vote has not been upheld! So if we have another referendum without honouring the result of the first, then we could all argue that we won't accept the result of that one either! And on it goes. In that instance, if the second vote was won by remainers, why shouldn't leavers ask for another referendum in another three or four years, when the EU are pushing for closer and closer federalisation and we're being threatened with being made to join the Euro? As I've said before, we've had a vote, we voted to leave, and that result should be honoured. It's the only sensible and truly democratic course of action. And please don't try to tell me I didn't know what I voted for - I voted to Leave.

"Sources" suggesting this will pass but the programme motion is on a knife edge.

The first division! (On the second reading).

If Boris asks for an election and the vote goes against him, that could mean that someone else would be ask to step in and be PM and that is JC as he is leader of largest party. Its not an election I want but another referendum first. Not on leave or stay but sremain or accept the deal.

3 years ago on one day, we were asked to vote. It is such an important matter that we really need to make sure that what we do is what the people NOW want, not what the 17 odd million 3 years ago.

I went to Oradour couple of years ago it was chilling. They have preserved the burnt out village where hundreds were killed. The church where the women and children were herded and then burnt alive. The houses, shops, hotels, where you can see the inhabitants cars, sewing machines etc all burnt and in the place where they were left - so moving. Definitely peace and unity is the best thing to come out of the EU

G1943 It's the same here in France. The people we know (mostly retired) regularly chat with us about Brexit. There has not been the slightest hint of hostility, only bemusement that we are inflicting such a change upon ourselves. They are also much more aware of the necessity to keep peace in Europe than we are.

We live about 60 miles south of Oradour sur Glane - a village that was destroyed by a Panzer division retreating northwards. The burnt out village is now a memorial which can be visited. There are many sites of war time atrocities in this area. One, a few miles away. is where the Nazis ambushed 50 Resistance fighters. 43 were killed on the spot, 4 were shipped to a concentration camp and 3 managed to escape. In the site building there are photos of all the dead and they were all young. There are information panels detailing the history of the massacre and also the involvement of SOE with the Resistance.

In recent years the French have changed the word German on memorial plaques to Nazi.

Peace in our time is important and IMO we are stronger together with the other 27.

Have we lost Varian, by the way. I wanted to tell her I thought Jo Swindon did well today. A few people are getting good practice with all this. I think Kier Starmer has improved too.

Would Johnson get his two-thirds majority (434) if he puts a motion for an election forward, do you think. What happens if he doesn't?

A GE wouldn't solve anything and certainly wouldn't give a decisive answer.

It's about as silly as deciding whether people prefer caviar or fish fingers by asking them whether they prefer Aldi or Waitrose.

Labaik, You are welcome to come but would need to bring some EU food, pasta from Italy, wine from France etc and have some ideas for games, like musical dead in a ditch. Be positive Remainers.

Even then, nobody knows for sure how the individuals within the areas voted.

Exactly! There has been some very muddled thinking about MPs and the relationship with the results in their constituencies. Nobody knows for sure how any constituency voted, unless the constituency is also a council area.

It's the same with the Leave-voting Labour constituencies. Surveys have shown that most Labour supporters in those areas did actually vote to remain.

You might find this interesting, growstuff as it confirms your statement.

...while 68% of Labour voters voted to Remain in the EU in 2016, what about voters in those seats which voted to Leave the EU? Dividing countries in to Leave and Remain seats and subdividing by the 2017 winner, the BES data shows that in Labour seats where there was a Leave majority, 60% of Labour voters voted to Remain in 2016 compared to 76% in Remain seats. In other words while unsurprisingly there were more Labour leave voters in leave seats, on average there was still a substantial Remain majority. Even in those with a Leave vote of greater than 60%, a clear majority (57%) of Labour voters voted Remain in 2016.

www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-findings/labours-electoral-dilemma/#.Xa82YehKjIW

I have always suspected this to be so as even strong Labour constituencies contain tories and voters for other parties.

I don't know Bradford, so I don't know who lives where.

Bradford West voted 53.26% Remain
Bradford East voted 44.84% Remain

If 33% of the population is non-white, it could very well be that all the non-white people voted Remain.

It's the same with the Leave-voting Labour constituencies. Surveys have shown that most Labour supporters in those areas did actually vote to remain.

It's actually not that simple to calculate how parliamentary constituencies voted because the votes were counted by council areas, not constituencies. The figures given are "guesstimates".

For example, the constituency where I live is estimated to have voted 51.24% Leave/48.76% Remain. However, the only accurate figure known is how the district council area voted and the parliamentary constituency is 20% bigger and the figure was estimated. There is bound to be some margin of error and it wouldn't surprise me if the true figure had a small Remain majority. Of course, that works the other way, but it depends how the voters fall - whether in seats with big or small majorities.

It's nonsense to claim that MPs should represent their constituencies when in some cases at least, it's now known with any certainty how their constituencies voted.

I visited my companies recently opened offices in Belgium yesterday and over dinner last evening the conversation turned to Britain and brexit with the person who is now running our operation over there.

To be clear, Britain's exit from the EU community is not the top item in the news on any evening in Belgium, but there is interest. Above Brexit are the deplorable actions of Donald Trump and his "outright sellout" of the Kurdish population on the Turkish border. In that I was asked, does Britain really wish to pull away from the European Union and place its future in alliance with a leader such as that.

As was said to me, the European Union has and has always had its problems and a union of such size will always face problems in its operation into the future. However, that Union has kept the peace in Europe by tying it's member Nations closely together and reliant on each other following two wars which engulfed the whole world and cost millions of lives and an untold amount of other misery.

It would seem from my recent two visits to the above country that people there cannot in any way conceive why Britain wishes to withdrawal from a union of nations that has achieved so much.

For answers to that I could find none.

Maggiemaybe I don't think anybody has claimed that everybody who voted leave is racist, but I can guarantee that a not insignificant proportion are. I've spoken to hundreds of voters while canvassing and some of them are truly obnoxious.

My DGS has just visited his Parliament.
He had to look smart and wear his school uniform, as did all his classmates.
I don't think he has ever skate boarded.

Presumably wearing jeans and skidding around the H of P on a skateboard would be considered acceptable and not behaving like a hooligan!

It's interesting how Leavers are very critical of the MPs whereas Remainers are praising them for attempting to their job by scrutinising the bills that are put in front of them. I think that the Tory front bench are poor and conclude that so many ministers have resigned or been sacked that those left are the dross.

Or Labaik could it be that Asian Heritage British people are just as concerned about unfettered immigration from 27 EU countries as anybody else living here.
Just a thought!

It’s strange Pantglas2 but the fact is there are more Remainers commenting on the Leave thread then are on here!

I think they enjoy the argy bargy, that must be it.