Considering voting Labour?

If, for example, you earned £30,000 in one year, £32,000 the next and £29,0000 in a third year, the lender will calculate you average income to be around £30,000

Workers on these contracts may be viewed less favourably by lenders, especially when compared to someone on a permanent contract with a guaranteed income.

This is because a zero-hour contract worker is generally considered higher risk and more likely to miss mortgage payments in the future

Of course you average rickshaw driver/parcel delivery person/care worker will easily be on £ 30,000..... or not?

I have three friends with 40 years of nursing experience each and they are on “zero hours bank contracts” . It totally meets their needs and expectations.

I am willing to accept that the NHS is a reasonable employer, but whilst making all the assertions you do you are not backing it up with evidence.
What kind of evidence are you asking for? Other posters have popped on to say that their relatives or friends have chosen 0hr contracts and are happy with them
The NHS, one of the largest providers of 0hr contracts in the country, is also actively recruiting in every trust and offering permanant contracts alonside bank contracts. And people still chose bank. How is that not evidence that some people LIKE their 0hr contracts if they are chosing them in organisations that also offer alternatives?

You posts simple prove to your satisfaction that zero hours contracts work, for NHS workers, but you provide no evidence of this. as above

It doesn’t matter though, because you haven’t refuted the basic tenant that zero hours are exploitative, I have shown how some are and some aren't.

in fact you agree that they are in certain cases. yup. Address that. Tighten up. Make sure zero hours are used appropriately and not abused. Dont ban them for everyone.

tell you what , try it out for a few weeks and juggle paying rent, UC, buying school uniforms, paying utilities, the weekly shop , transport and living in fear of not getting those precious hours and then get back to us.

You seriously have no idea.

Of course you average rickshaw driver/parcel delivery person/care worker will easily be on £ 30,000..... or not?

Again with swings and roundabouts, this is actually why some lower pay band NHS workers chose to give up their permanant contracts and do only bank. They can boost their income up to the equivalent of the next pay band just by being free to chose to only work the higher value shifts (nights, weekends, bank holidays). They may not otherwise be able to achieve that kind of pay boost without re-training!

So the higher income for some more than compensates for the other comprimises.

Plus no pension when you come to retirement age - if you ever do.

It is a long term recipe for disaster.

tell you what , try it out for a few weeks and juggle paying rent, UC, buying school uniforms, paying utilities, the weekly shop , transport and living in fear of not getting those precious hours and then get back to us.

You seriously have no idea.

I already have. How else did you think I knew so much about it?

Plus no pension when you come to retirement age - if you ever do.

NHS bank staff get NHS pensions (unless they opt out)

You seriously have no idea.

Oh I know. Only labour supporters give this stuff any thought right?

Oh notanan

There are at present about 780000 zero hours workers, how many if those has a pension?

You obsess about the NHS because it seems that is all you are familiar with. But I would suggest to you that it isn’t typical. Neither does it from what I have read from its publication on the subject something that they necessarily agree with.

I think you have met your match WWM2

‘Free personal care for the elderly’

A sizeable proportion - will rummage out the numbers - who need social care provision to thrive or live independently are under 65 years old. To assume that only the elderly are in need for free social care is profoundly ageist & disablist given that it is disability rather than the passage of time that accounts for the social care need in <65yos.

Could bung <65yos into a home as well but it’ll get awfully crowded....

I watched question time last week and there was a debate on zero hours contracts workers. 3 in the audience spoke of their experiences 2 enjoyed working that way 1 didn't. Another audience member who ran a state school said it worked well for them too.

There are at present about 780000 zero hours workers, how many if those has a pension?
Then make sure all zero hr contracts comply with the workplace pension schemes. Rather than ban'em!

You obsess about the NHS because it seems that is all you are familiar with.
Partially. Sure. But also because labour supporters say that they are the only ones who care about the NHS yet they will allow their party to cause absolute havoc across the NHS by doing this!

But I would suggest to you that it isn’t typical
The NHS is not a small minority employer. It is probably one of the largest employer of 0hr contracted workers in the country. I'm sorry but that cannot so easily be dismissed as an "exception"

WWWM2. Would zero hours workers earn enough to pay tax and national insurance to the state and get a state pension

By typical I meant the way it treats its employees.

The problem I have with your posts notanan is that you are asserting so much but providing no real evidence except that based on personal experience which isn’t good enough. You can describe what you have seen as happening but not what the result of this widespread use of these contracts amounts to. They clearly worked for you and I can hear your enthusiasm for them, but you really ought to look at the bigger picture where so many of them are used in an exploitative way. They don’t work for the worker but work really well for the bottom line. There must be balance.

I’m off to bed now with my book “The Hundred Year’s War” ??.

I watched question time last week and there was a debate on zero hours contracts workers. 3 in the audience spoke of their experiences 2 enjoyed working that way 1 didn't. Another audience member who ran a state school said it worked well for them too.

And this incredibly small self-selected sample tells us exactly what, Tooting29

The problem I have with your posts notanan is that you are asserting so much but providing no real evidence except that based on personal experience which isn’t good enough. You can describe what you have seen as happening but not what the result of this widespread use of these contracts amounts to. They clearly worked for you and I can hear your enthusiasm for them, but you really ought to look at the bigger picture where so many of them are used in an exploitative way.

Funnily enough WWM2 just a few post back you accused me of having no personal experience of such things, as I was posting about the genetal bigger picture, until that wasnt good enough and you wanted me to have personal experience....which I then shared...

Hmmm

I think it is labour that fail to see the bigger picture. They never want to tweak or perfect! Zero hour contract abuse could be tackled without banning all zero hour contracts! Then you address the bad and retain the good: THAT'S looking at the bigger picture!

They won't learn from experience (e.g. landlord licence zones. FAILED catestrophically at council level to make things better for renters but LETS ROLL IT OUT NATIONALLY ANYWAY)

Interesting that you focus entirely on the doctor's viewpoint and the logistics of why a consultant should be on a zero hours contract notanan2. The point surely is that regardless of the theatre time allotted the consultant is very likely not to have any other contact time with patients, and almost certainly will not be contracted for the time currently allowed to consultants with proper employment contracts for maintaining patient notes, resulting in a less satisfactory experience for patients.
You haven't provided any real evidence for the retention of zero hours contracts, simply asserted that you and a few other people like them. People wanting flexible working can do such work without any contract as casual staff. People wanting regular work should at least be given a minimum number of hours so that they can plan their lives.

You cannot deduce any of that from that job advert. If anything the consultant grade dictors who arent on the full time permanant contracts tend to get more patient contact time as they are often the ones covering extra clinics!

They are required to keep exactly the same notes/paperwork.

and almost certainly will not be contracted for the time currently allowed to consultants with proper employment contracts for maintaining patient notes What you mean their "lunch breaks" and the hour before they officially start and the 2hrs they stay after their paid hours finish and the popping to their desks on their days off?
At least the BANK doctors can claim the hours the actually WORK! Fixed salary Drs work many many unpaid hours. No wonder some may prefer bank.

Could well be that one of the 2 permanant consultants they say they have on the team is older and planning to apply for the bank job to "wind down" and guess what? Have MORE patient clinic time, freeing up the full time permanant post for some new blood?

As I said. Not unusual at senior level for posts to be created with someone in mind. Sometimes the person it's created for write the job description to suit them. That could be the case there? And wouldnt be at all unusual. Its a way to retain people.

You haven't provided any real evidence for the retention of zero hours contracts, simply asserted that you and a few other people like them.

Not a few. The NHS is the biggest employer in the country. One of the biggest employers in the world. A lot of their staff chose these contracts. Alternatives are available. There are many outstanding vacancies for permanant contracts in the NHS at all grades yet people at all grades still chose the zero hour contracts.

That's not "a few"

The evidence is there. Readily available. The NHS has vacancies at all grades yet has thousands chosing bank. Why? Unless people LIKE them?

Actually notanan2 properly negotiated consultant contracts include time for updating patient records and completing paperwork. I don't know where you get your ideas from but I know this through personal connections. Usually it is worked on a percentage basis so say 1 days work would mean one or two hours for record keeping.