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Think the NHS is safe in Tory hands? Think again

(120 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Sun 03-Nov-19 09:54:48

Polls show that we are more proud of the NHS than the Royal Family or the armed forces.

The NHS is the closest thing we have to a religion., and Labour launched a warning about the threat of US trade deal, saying that the NHS is not for sale.

The Tories immediately hit back, calling Corbyn’s warning a pathetic scare story and even Trump waded in with saying “all we want to do is trade”

It would be political suicide for the Tories to try to unpick the fundamentals of the NHS, to pave the way for large-scale privatisation, and to introduce an insurance based system, or to bring in significant user charges..

But the Tories malevolent influence is more insidious.

It has starved the NHS of resources, and introduced the means for big pharma industries to extract profit at the expense of the tax payer.

The Tory record speaks for itself.

The NHS has come under severe strain as a result of the cuts imposed upon it by successive Tory chancellors.

As they dolled out generous tax cuts to o more affluent family costing billions of pounds a year, the NHS was continually starved of funds.

Indeed the NHS is now experienced the tightest funding since its inception. Spending on our health service is significantly lower than most of our international competitors.

The independent Kings Fund has stated

“The NHS is clearly under-resourced”

That is why winter after winter we hear of a crises in our NHS.

Last winter it took the unprecedented step of cancelling all non-urgent surgery.

There is increased waiting lists, understaffing, and bed occupancy rates consistently above the levels that permit safe care.

Tory ministers continue to misrepresent the level of funding, consistently claiming that it is getting mor3 money than it actually is.

So the Tories have are putting the NHS at risk in order to fund unnecessary and expensive tax cuts.

There is no reason to believe that they won’t continue along this road.

A US trade deal is the cherished objective of the hard right, which now dominates the shell of the Tory party, and this deal pushes a serious risk to the NHS.

It will open the door to rising drug costs to the tune if billions a year.

The US governments desire to liberalise access to the international drug market, and this has been the subject of many meetings between the U.K. and US trade negotiators.

The hard Tory right is desperate for a US trade deal and want to align with the US regulatory standards, it is one of the reasons why they want to leave the EU.

After the economic fallout of a Johnson Brexit the U.K. will not be in any position to exacting demands, and we will be in danger of signing up to a trading treaty that will bind the hands of future generations to make Britain a rule taker from the US.

We will have left the EU , an institution over which we have a democratic say in its laws and rules to become a vassal of the USA..
The ideological right has taken over the Tory party and is prepared to sacrifice the country’s wellbeing in order to get the version of the future it wants.

Think it will exclude the NHS?

Think again


Whitewavemark2 Sun 03-Nov-19 10:52:07

First hand evidence from a doctor

Dr Georgina Porter #GetTheToriesOut

Ambulances can't offload because A&E is full, A&E can't clear spaces because there are no acute beds to move patients to, there are no acute beds because medically fit but vulnerable elderly can't be discharged because social care has been decimated. (I work in A&E)

jura2 Sun 03-Nov-19 11:17:00

and flu season and ice and snow + slips and breaks not upon us yet.

GrannyGravy13 Sun 03-Nov-19 12:17:09

Acknowledge the NHS for all that it does well instead of the constant negativity please.

In the last five weeks our family has been on the receiving end of exceptional care from professional staff in clean wards, the only "gripe" as such has been the food.

Our youngest member is currently still in hospital and the care has been kind and efficient.

I was referred for an endoscopy by GP and had the procedure within 2 weeks.

Another GC was seen in A & E and within 3 hours they had X Rays, MRI scan, blood tests and the results.

Unfortunately bad news travels further and faster than good.

Whilst I am not implying the NHS is perfect, it is still saving and improving lives everyday, and is something the UK can be proud of!!

Davidhs Sun 03-Nov-19 12:19:59

It’s not just social care, it’s the way GPs send patients on to A&E at the slightest uncertainty because then it is not their problem. Patients leaving hospital is another issue, they need 24/7 care to be available - it may be a spouse or a relative but if none is available high dependency care has to be provided and that is expensive.

There is no solution because demand is open ended, more expensive treatment and procedures keep us living longer, requiring more again.

winterwhite Sun 03-Nov-19 12:27:44

No, I certainly don't think that the NHS and social care would be safe under another tory government. And I don't vote Labour.

Both sectors need a proper workforce, which means enough cash to pay people a decent salary to come and work here. Any hope of that? Nope.

They need new money to be not only adequate but 'real' new money, not recycled promises or clawed back from 'savings' scraped from cuts elsewhere. Any hope of that? Nope.

I may be mistaken, but when I heard BJ extolling the virtues of the NHS last week I thought I heard him say 'free at the point of use'. Ominous. Does this herald insurance schemes affordable only to the well-off who may also expect to be enjoying tax cuts? Are we right to be concerned about that? Yes.

pinkquartz Sun 03-Nov-19 12:29:06


the most common reason for keeping people in hospital is simply lack of social care. That part has been cut to a severe level.
Many people including myself no longer get the care at home that they were receiving and need.
Many elderly people in hospital may only need care for a short time but the councils drag their feet to put it in place.

If only a Govt would make the councils ringfence the money to be spent on helping the elderly and disabled but they don't.

There have been cuts by both Tory and Labour Govts....but while the Tories always do it the most. Labour did also make cuts.

MaizieD Sun 03-Nov-19 12:32:47

Acknowledge the NHS for all that it does well instead of the constant negativity please.

GG13 Nobody is trying to run the NHS down here. We know that it does a fantastic job under very difficult circumstances. You are confusing deep concern for the future of the NHS with denigration of its services.

MaizieD Sun 03-Nov-19 12:37:58

There have been cuts by both Tory and Labour Govts....but while the Tories always do it the most. Labour did also make cuts.

Tell us about the Labour cuts, pinkquartz.

How do they tally with this CH4 fact check dating from just before the 2010 General Election (last time Labour was in office)

gillyknits Sun 03-Nov-19 12:38:38

Local councils are responsible for social care and they aren’t spending enough money on it.

Joelsnan Sun 03-Nov-19 12:51:19

The trouble is we now expect too much from both our NHS and our Social Services.
Unless we have a nationwide non partisan conversation about what we want and what we can afford from both these services, they will continue to be privatised through it being un-affordable and it wont matter which political party is in power.

growstuff Sun 03-Nov-19 13:11:38

What do we expect from social care that wasn't available in the past? My own experience is that much more was available thirty or so years ago, when my grandparents were alive.

MaizieD Sun 03-Nov-19 13:17:42

Unless we have a nationwide non partisan conversation about what we want and what we can afford from both these services, they will continue to be privatised through it being un-affordable

I think it's time we had a thread about political economics.

Can you explain why you think the NHS is unaffordable, Joelsnan? Where do you think the money comes from? What is it spent on, who is it spent with and where does it go once it's been spent? Where does it eventually end up?

Let's see if we can come to terms with the idea of money spent on the NHS circulating in the economy, not disappearing down a big black hole.

growstuff Sun 03-Nov-19 13:21:56

My local hospital has 1486 beds. On average, 100 beds a day are being used by patients who can't be discharged because no follow-on package is available, either in the home or in a managed setting.

Last winter, the hospital had a 95.5% occupancy rate, so was almost full to capacity. People were being turned away from A & E and planned operations were cancelled because staff and beds just weren't available.

If lower tier nursing care had been available in the community (paid for by local councils), more serious cases could have been treated.

Local councils have had their budgets cut too and "cottage hospitals" are still being closed.

In this area, people who need urgent care at night or during weekends (broken limbs, deep cuts, very high temperature) have no alternative but to go to A & E because there are no walk-in facilities out of office hours. That is worse than it was in the past - not expecting more.

Harris27 Sun 03-Nov-19 13:22:14

I have a kidney stone and was admitted and treated within days having stent put in. Was told the stent would only be in 4/6 weeks and I would have an op to remove the

Harris27 Sun 03-Nov-19 13:23:13

Sorry went to fast! It is now coming up 10:weeks and I will have this op on Friday the 8 November for which I am duly relieved. Wish me luck!

Tooting29 Sun 03-Nov-19 13:27:46

Joelsnan, well said. What is needed is a non partisan, non political point scoring, unemotional debate about the NHS. I personally think that all parties know NHS is sacred and want the best for the NHS but have different approaches. We need a sustainable funding model, ring fenced in the budget, an investment plan for instructure and people based on local heath needs. A real assessment on what NHS can deliver and what its priorities are. Hard decisions and unpopularity decisions made on what is affordable. The prime problem I see is short termism swinging from one election to another. So LP in their political fervour swing one way Conservatives do the same. And then it's easy to blame the other side when things go wrong rather than sort it out. 70 years on it needs a root and branch radical review on the art of the possible rather than tinkering around the edges based on winning seats at the next election. I would like to see it unpoliticised and some independent review done with a 20-30 year plan put in place that we could all sign up to and commitments from the parties to abide by that plan. Its too precious to he left in the hands of the politicians who just use it for grandstanding and point scoring. It's a great service and let's hear some good news stories for perspective. I owe my life to the NHS, a great GP, a great consultant, wonderful and expensive treatment when I needed it. I was lucky to have a doctor who fought for the funding for my treatment as the prognosis at the time was not great. I can vividly remember being so unwell and being left in a wheelchair in corridor with no one to take me back to the ward. I thought I was going to die there. 20 odd years ago staff were under resourced and that has not changed we need to ask why and hold all our politicians to account.

growstuff Sun 03-Nov-19 13:40:41

I can't remember the actual statistics, but a substantial percentage of the NHS budget is spent in the last two years of a person's life. Pensioners spend a lower percentage of their income/wealth on the NHS than people of working age.

It seems to me that there are only a couple of logical/possible solutions.

growstuff Sun 03-Nov-19 13:43:41

There have endless tinkering with management structures since 2010. We need less money to be spent on reorganisation and higher taxes to bring UK healthcare spending up to the level of other first-world countries.

Joelsnan Sun 03-Nov-19 13:57:09

Patronising or what!
Educate me then seeing as you know all.

Davidhs Sun 03-Nov-19 14:00:22


I agree there is no alternative to more taxation to fund the NHS but spend it on care not managers and administrators .

lemongrove Sun 03-Nov-19 14:02:31

Excellent post Tooting??
I am tired of the blatant political point scoring going on just at election time on a forum like GN.
It’s one thing to express your opinion but another to start lots of threads with only one message ( yes, you, WWM2) trying to ram home the LP message and copying and pasting huge chunks of The Guardian.It’s tedious and counter productive in the end.

quizqueen Sun 03-Nov-19 14:18:25

The NHS has plenty of money and resources but it is very mismanaged and wasteful. It was also not set up to treat such a large population as the UK presently has, neither was it set up to undertake cosmetic operations and procedures, which sometimes seem to be given more priority to life saving ones. It cannot be all things to everyone unless taxpayers are willing to pay a lot more to fund it and accept there will less funding to support other areas of society.

Tooting29 Sun 03-Nov-19 14:41:52

Quisqueen I agree with your point. The NHS as an employer and a business (yes I use the B word) is huge and it needs a business like approach. As per my posting on another thread. Nurses and doctors are only part of the equation. They can't care if there is no medicine and no equipment to treat people. All this needs to he bought and paid for which means it has to engage with the market (oops another dirty word).
NHS is governed by regulations, and HM treasury guidelines on managing public money. This puts procurement into the equation who need to make sure sustainable supply lines are in place. Mistakes in the past have been driving for lower prices and getting a shoddy service, but really they should be striving for delivery partners on essential supplies and agree deals that can deliver. This could come from domestic market of global market (yes even US) but we need to safeguard against sub standard supplies with understanding the real need and not get blinded by aggressive pharmaceutical salesmen on the next shiny toys. This needs management and procurement experts.

Grany Sun 03-Nov-19 14:43:18

The NHS is being deliberately underfunded since 2010 the lowest amount spent on it since it's inception 70 years ago. Underfunded so it fails and private companies take over Billions of pounds in contracts have been given already to the private sector Mat Hancock said no privatisation happening on my watch but had to delete that tweet on Twitter as was proven wrong. In 2012 the government brought in the Health and Social Care Act which effectively gives the private companies contracts and takes the responsibility of the health service from the government. Remember Dave Cameron said in his election speech There will be no top down organisation of the NHS but in 2012 that is precisely what happened. I remember Michael Portillo said on the programme after question Time, can't remember the name now. David Cameron could not tell people straight out that the Tories want to privatise the NHS or people wouldn't vote for them. Now you Tory voters on here there is plenty evidence around speak to Dr nurses the NHS is being privatised. Johnson will strike a deal with that Trump. Now it's up to you who you vote for, you have been warned. The vultures are circling