Gransnet forums

News & politics

Think the NHS is safe in Tory hands? Think again

(121 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Sun 03-Nov-19 09:54:48

Polls show that we are more proud of the NHS than the Royal Family or the armed forces.

The NHS is the closest thing we have to a religion., and Labour launched a warning about the threat of US trade deal, saying that the NHS is not for sale.

The Tories immediately hit back, calling Corbyn’s warning a pathetic scare story and even Trump waded in with saying “all we want to do is trade”

It would be political suicide for the Tories to try to unpick the fundamentals of the NHS, to pave the way for large-scale privatisation, and to introduce an insurance based system, or to bring in significant user charges..

But the Tories malevolent influence is more insidious.

It has starved the NHS of resources, and introduced the means for big pharma industries to extract profit at the expense of the tax payer.

The Tory record speaks for itself.

The NHS has come under severe strain as a result of the cuts imposed upon it by successive Tory chancellors.

As they dolled out generous tax cuts to o more affluent family costing billions of pounds a year, the NHS was continually starved of funds.

Indeed the NHS is now experienced the tightest funding since its inception. Spending on our health service is significantly lower than most of our international competitors.

The independent Kings Fund has stated

“The NHS is clearly under-resourced”

That is why winter after winter we hear of a crises in our NHS.

Last winter it took the unprecedented step of cancelling all non-urgent surgery.

There is increased waiting lists, understaffing, and bed occupancy rates consistently above the levels that permit safe care.

Tory ministers continue to misrepresent the level of funding, consistently claiming that it is getting mor3 money than it actually is.

So the Tories have are putting the NHS at risk in order to fund unnecessary and expensive tax cuts.

There is no reason to believe that they won’t continue along this road.

A US trade deal is the cherished objective of the hard right, which now dominates the shell of the Tory party, and this deal pushes a serious risk to the NHS.

It will open the door to rising drug costs to the tune if billions a year.

The US governments desire to liberalise access to the international drug market, and this has been the subject of many meetings between the U.K. and US trade negotiators.

The hard Tory right is desperate for a US trade deal and want to align with the US regulatory standards, it is one of the reasons why they want to leave the EU.

After the economic fallout of a Johnson Brexit the U.K. will not be in any position to exacting demands, and we will be in danger of signing up to a trading treaty that will bind the hands of future generations to make Britain a rule taker from the US.

We will have left the EU , an institution over which we have a democratic say in its laws and rules to become a vassal of the USA..
The ideological right has taken over the Tory party and is prepared to sacrifice the country’s wellbeing in order to get the version of the future it wants.

Think it will exclude the NHS?

Think again

Observer
8/10/19

Tooting29 Sun 03-Nov-19 20:28:58

I would not expect the NHS to make a profit, but rather break even. I would try to limit the level of profit contractors can make in the contractual arrangements and that efficiency savings are passed onto to the NHS. I see LP announced today that it wants to take contracts back in house this is fine but under TUPE they will obliged to take contract employees in house too and that could mean additional costs in pension/redundancies etc. This to protect employees rights. This might not result in cost savings or efficiencies.

Joelsnan Sun 03-Nov-19 20:49:44

MaizieD
2% per annum, that is just in repayments, however this does not take into account the tie-in sub contracts emanating from these contracts. Those health authorities with PFIs are particularly manacled.
Shame because if these contracts had been Treasury funded the repayments would be going back into the uk economy instead of going to overseas investors.
^The price tag for repaying PFI firms will reach £8.6 billion next year alone, with the taxpayer owing a total of £121.4 billion on public projects which are worth only £52.9 billion.
Many PFI deals tie local authorities into expensive catering, cleaning and maintenance contracts, meaning the total bill to the taxpayer is £229 billion. In one case, a school was charged £320 for a plug socket. Daily Telegraph)^
Wasn’t the PFI issue created by Labour to meet EU requirement for government spending...keeping the loans off the books?

Tweedle24 Sun 03-Nov-19 21:52:12

The hospital I worked In was the first to ‘embrace’ PFI. I immediately lost the domestic on the ward team and shared another with another ward. Hours for ward cleaning were cut
.
One example of the waste caused by this new regime was the procedure to be followed if there was spillage. Before the contract company, I just asked our domestic to deal with it. After contract I had to *
“bleep” a supervisor, wait for her to reply and then ask her to send someone even if there was a cleaner currently on the ward . What happened in practice of course was that I, or another of the nursing staff, cleaned it up. It was not the actual chore that mattered but, the time taken away from direct patient care.

Our original domestic took a pride in “her” ward. The new system left no-one with that loyalty to their area. I am not saying the staff did not do a good job. Most of them were excellent, when they were there but , it was not the same.

Tooting29 Mon 04-Nov-19 07:18:15

Excellent feature on Radio4 this morning on NHS and how an evidence based non political approach is required. Apparently there is an article in the Times on it.

Tooting29 Mon 04-Nov-19 07:24:20

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/please-dont-turn-the-nhs-into-a-political-weapon-tghsn6hbp

Whitewavemark2 Mon 04-Nov-19 09:59:42

tooting why not the Prime minister has been trying (and failing) to do that since he called the election.

Wonder what the subject will be this week.

He could try “recruiting 20k more police” I suppose.

Doesn’t do a lot for me tbh as I have sat watching as the Tories got rid of 20k police over the past 10 years

growstuff Mon 04-Nov-19 10:24:04

I've just read the Times article. I agree that the NHS shouldn't be a "political football" and that promises should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

Nevertheless, I do not see how the NHS can not be "political". It's funded from taxation, so does involve all of us. Of course, there will be arguments about whether money is well-spent and how far we want to go in offering more innovative and expensive solutions, but the bottom line is that taxpayers pay for it and, therefore, it is a political issue.

There are choices to be made, which do affect people, such as not offering certain treatments, which would only be available to those who can afford to pay for them. That is very much a political decision.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 04-Nov-19 10:32:36

This is who wrote the article. CEO of private care. Conflict of interest springs to mind.

Political decisions are made wrt the NHS. It is a political entity.

The Tories are insisting that they will increase spending on the health service but in a separate article for The Times, Chris Hopson is CEO of NHS Providers, told parties not to turn the NHS into a political weapon.

Hopson said “over dramatising NHS difficulties” or making “disingenuous” funding claims did the service “no favours”.

He encouraged politicians to “look beyond” hospitals and find solutions to a staffing crisis and the crumbling social care system, asking politicians not to use the NHS as a “political weapon”. "

Chris Hopson is also on the board of CHKS which is part of Capita Healthcare, whose board includes the director of contracting of Spire Healthcare.

growstuff Mon 04-Nov-19 10:33:23

I've also just read part of the blog written by Chris Hopson, who wrote the Times article. It seems he thinks that the NHS is very much a political issue.

"The NHS treats a million people every 36 hours. In the vast majority of cases, the care they receive is exceptional. But in recent years, the ability of NHS professionals to provide the standard of care they strive and want to deliver has become harder.

Some of the challenges are widely known: the longest and deepest financial squeeze in NHS history, shortages of doctors and nurses, an ageing population, rapidly growing demand for healthcare and rising costs of treatment.

In recent years, the ability of NHS professionals to provide the standard of care they strive and want to deliver has become harder.

The government made an important and welcome commitment last year to increase the NHS’ day-to-day spending to meet these challenges, giving the NHS certainty over that revenue spending until 2023/24. But the capital budget for the NHS’s buildings, equipment and infrastructure remains untouched.

The distinction is important. Paying for more doctors and nurses, newer treatments and more appointments and operations is vital. But what’s the point if NHS staff are trying to deliver care in buildings with leaky roofs and broken plumbing? If diagnostic tests and scans are being performed with outdated equipment? If patients with serious mental health conditions are being treated on wards built over 175 years ago? If the kit for paramedics is not up to date?

The NHS buildings and equipment budget has been relentlessly squeezed year after year. Over the last five years we’ve had to transfer nearly £5bn of that money to prop up day to day spending. As a result, the NHS now has a maintenance backlog of £6bn, £3bn of it safety critical. The NHS estate is crumbling and the new NHS long term plan can’t be delivered because we don’t have the modern equipment the NHS needs.

Paying for more doctors and nurses, newer treatments and more appointments and operations is vital. But what’s the point if NHS staff are trying to deliver care in buildings with leaky roofs and broken plumbing?

It’s scandalous that, as a nation, we’re now spending less than half the amount on these items than comparable countries. The impact on patients is tangible and real. Take the number of modern scanners that are so crucial to 21st century medicine as they enable rapid and effective diagnosis of a range of conditions from cancer to heart disease. Per head of population, we have fewer computed tomography (CT) scanners than Slovenia, the Russian Federation, Turkey and the Czech and Slovak Republics, and less than half the number you’ll find in Latvia, Greece and Iceland. World-leading Japan has more than five times the number of CT scanners than the UK does.

So it’s no surprise that 80% of frontline trust leaders, in a survey we’re releasing today, believe that this continued underinvestment is putting patient safety at risk. Those leaders have deep concerns about the impact of these capital spending constraints on patients’ waiting times, quality of care, and staff wellbeing and recruitment. Their message is simple – current levels of NHS capital funding are insufficient to allow the NHS to stand still, let alone invest in the transformational technologies required by modern medicine.

The new government has begun to recognise this with its recent, positive, decision to scrap the request that all trusts cut back their capital spending plans by 20% this year. It’s also allocated a small amount of extra funding for twenty hospital upgrades over the next five years. But, as health and social care secretary Matt Hancock made clear, this can only be the start. As we head towards next week’s spending round, with health high on the chancellor’s agenda, it is clear there is a huge amount of catching up to do.

Current levels of NHS capital funding are insufficient to allow the NHS to stand still, let alone invest in the transformational technologies required by modern medicine.

That’s why NHS Providers and frontline trust leaders are today launching a campaign to rebuild our NHS and create a 21st century health service with a properly-funded and well-designed system of capital investment.

The campaign is calling for three things. First, we need the government to set a multi-year NHS capital budget, allowing us to plan for the future and transform its services and equipment. At present, there’s no NHS capital budget for the year after next. If we’ve set the NHS revenue budget till 2023/24, we must set the capital budget for at least the same period. Ideally, we’d match the ten years of the new NHS long term plan.

Second, we need the government to bring the NHS’s capital funding into line with comparable countries. We should be aiming to at least double the health service’s current capital spend and sustain that growth for the foreseeable future. Because the NHS is a universal public service, increasing NHS capital budgets has the added benefit of bringing much needed investment and jobs to parts of the country that would otherwise struggle to attract them.

We need the government to set a multi-year NHS capital budget, allowing us to plan for the future and transform its services and equipment. At present, there’s no NHS capital budget for the year after next.

Third, we need the government to ensure the money gets to where it is needed on the frontline. Current approvals for new capital projects are so mired in bureaucracy that the last major NHS new build infrastructure project was approved almost half a decade ago.

We know all the government shares these aims, but their warm words now need to be translated into action, because the situation is becoming increasingly urgent. We must see a commitment to address this in the forthcoming spending Round. We need to rebuild our NHS, and give our doctors and nurses the tools to create the 21st century health service that patients expect and that we can all be proud of."

growstuff Mon 04-Nov-19 10:46:37

Another article (this time in the Guardian) about Chris Hopson and what's his message is:

Rational and evidence-based debate rather than surface-level approaches have been urged


Chris Hopson, chief executive of NHS Providers, said recent Tory funding pledges would only maintain current provision.

The head of the organisation representing NHS trusts has called for parties to avoid “cheap political slogans” about health during the general election campaign, and instead engage in a rational debate about the best way to fund and manage the service.

Chris Hopson, the chief executive of NHS Providers, stressed that his organisation was politically neutral and not seeking to criticise any one party.

But pointing to examples of potentially misleading campaigning, Hopson noted that the level of NHS funding increases promised by the Conservatives would do no more than maintain current provision, rather than take the NHS to “sunlit uplands”.

Asked about Labour’s warnings on NHS privatisation, Hopson said the debate around outsourcing had to be framed around the point that much of this took place anyway, and that some private provision was seen as working well, for example hospices.

“What really worries us, if you look back over the last four or five elections, the debates about our health and care systems have generated extreme amounts of heat and very little light,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

“What we’re very keen to do is ensure that as we start to think about that debate in the general election campaign, we frame it in the right way.”

The NHS is expected to dominate much of the domestic policy debate during the campaign. Given the popularity of the service, “you can see why politicians would want to wrap themselves in the mantle of the NHS and show how they are it’s biggest champions, it’s biggest defenders”, Hopson said.

Labour promises to remove all traces of privatisation from NHS.

“What we are saying is: let’s have a proper, mature, evidence-based debate about what the NHS needs, and let’s not resort to the cheap political slogans, and skimming across the top, which is what we’ve seen over the last four or five elections.”

In discussing the current plans to increase the real-terms NHS budget by an average of 3.4% a year, it was important to be “honest about what the extra funding is going to buy”, Hopson said.

“One of the worries we have is that everybody is running around saying that this extra money now takes us to the sunlit uplands and that it’s all going to be fantastic. The reality is, it’s an amount of funding that just enables us to keep up with demand.”

A key Conservative pledge has been to create six extra hospitals, with seed finding for others. However, hospitals were not the only issue, he argued: “The NHS has a whole range of capital needs. It’s not just about acute hospitals, it’s actually also about mental health facilities, community and ambulance facilities. So we need a debate about how you cover all of the NHS’s capital needs.”

Blinko Mon 04-Nov-19 11:00:16

Meantime, the whole topic of Social Care seems to have been kicked into the long grass...

Surely it's crucial to the well being of the NHS that the Social Care issue is resolved? The more so, when we learn that such a huge % of NHS resources is spent on people in the final two years of their lives.

So far, I've not heard any political party say much about it. I'll be scrutinizing the various manifestos. This has been put on the back burner for far too long.

It seems to me that Health and Social Care should be part and parcel of the same political agenda.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 04-Nov-19 11:01:43

blinko absolutely

Grany Mon 04-Nov-19 11:23:06

The government documents Five Year Forward View, their so-called Sustainability and Tranformation Plans and the Ten Year Plan are nearly the last pieces in the jigsaw of their privatisation polices.

The first was presented at Davos at the World Economic Forum, apparently. It has been claimed the STP stands for Slash, Trash and Privatise or Secret Tory Plans. I gather in an effort to make it seem there is agreement they now call now partenerships instead of plans. And another name change to integrated care systems, then Integrated Care Providers! They really do think the public are stupid to be fooled by that old tactic.

The late great Professor Hawking.
They didn't call him a genius for noting. It wasn't his field but he was spot on. He summed it up on a sentence. The NHS is being replaced by forty-four US-style insurance-based private organisations. No question.

The Accounable Care Organisations were conceived in the USA. They involve government and private insurers awarding contracts to commercial providers to run and provide services. That is total privatisation.

They are non-NHS bodies. They decide which services are available, who gets them and what to now make people pay for. Quality is generally worse, and costs higher. There has been no public consultation. They suck in social care, which of course is means-tested so this has far reaching implications for the availability of free health care.

They won't allow a debate on this either. The Integrated Care Prividers front a network of private companies, private providers and insurance companies.

Extract from a book written by Dr Paul Hobday who so worried about what is happening to our NHS he wrote
The Deceit Syndrome catch 69

All profits from sales go to campaigns fighting to save our NHS

The NHS is not safe in the Tories hands.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 04-Nov-19 11:59:51

More evidence from a doctor on the front line

Rachel Clarke
@doctor_oxford
·
Nov 3
Replying to
@doctor_oxford
A few examples from the NHS frontline. When I qualified in 2009 nobody lay on a trolley in an ED corridor in my hospital. Nobody. Now it’s routine. Every winter. With ambulances queuing round the block. With staff & patients equally desperate. In the world’s 6th richest country.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 04-Nov-19 15:56:30

A warning

Dr Lauren Gavaghan
@DancingTheMind

“Fight to your very last breath to keep US-style healthcare out of your country, & to defend your NHS as of your life depends on it. DO NOT let the US healthcare companies get their fingers into your NHS. You will regret it for generations.”

[A US citizen in UK]

jaylucy Mon 04-Nov-19 16:10:06

This government is constantly saying that it is giving X million to the NHS - great.
Only thing is, that the money given over a number of years has fallen in real terms, so anything extra is sucked into paying off debts that are outstanding and then usually disappears down the CEO's latest "brilliant" idea plug hole!
Get rid of a lot of the top management and there would be more money available for patient care.
Each time there is an announcement that there is a new screening system for something, money has to be spent on firstly admin staff and then the cost of posting letters out to each and every person that needs to be contacted, sometimes up to 3 letters for each person if they don't respond, or miss an appointment - sending emails instead of letters and saving several thousand , just does not happen!
Conservatives have tried to privatise the NHS before and turn the medical treatment into the have and have nots, they must not be allowed to do this - unless they are going to put up the state pension to cover the cost of private health insurance (like that's going to happen)

Grany Mon 04-Nov-19 19:54:40

@Antonineone1
·
3h
Sushhhhhhhh........Mr Cummings!
Haven't you heard? No one's supposed to mention the NHS. ????
#VoteLabour2019

twitter.com/Antonineone1/status/1191396279466778625?s=20

growstuff Mon 04-Nov-19 21:04:21

The kind of thing which really bothers me about the Tories and the NHS is that Matt Hancock has apparently been promoting Babylon Healthcare. I haven't a clue if he has any vested interest, but it's not really the point.

Babylon and others provide "tele-medicine". The idea is that you can ring up and get an immediate (or almost immediate GP consultation). All very well in theory because I'm sure I'm not the only one who has difficulty getting a GP appointment.

However, there are a number of snags …

Firstly, there is a list of people who can't use tele-medicine, so normal GPs are landed with the difficult to treat patients.

Secondly, they use an algorithm which has been shown not to be very accurate.

Thirdly, patients have to register with them, so they can't see their normal GP. The tele-provider is paid by the NHS.

Fourthly, they don't provide anything which a savvy Google user couldn't do for him/herself.

Whenever I have anything wrong with me, I go to the NHS site and decide for myself whether I need further treatment (as I expect many people do). I only go to my GP if I know I almost certainly need a prescription, a blood test, a referral or if I'm really not sure. A remote GP, using a script, is unlikely to be able to give me the reassurance I want or spot something I hadn't thought of. I'm not willing to take that risk. Meanwhile, the remote GP will be paid the same as my own face-to-face GP.

The government seems to think that computers and technology can perform wonders, but I disagree. Health is an area where we still do need humans. I'm not surprised there's a shortage of GPs. They spend years and years in training and their expertise is undermined by spivvy salespeople selling the latest technological fad.

growstuff Mon 04-Nov-19 21:15:42

jaylucy Your point about putting up the state pension to cover private health insurance is an interesting one. I actually think that non-working people (including pensioners) should pay something towards healthcare.

The NHS is currently funded out of general taxation. The government receives almost as much in National Insurance Contributions as it does in income tax. Income tax reductions have always made the headlines, but NIC increases (which have gone hand in hand with tax reductions) have been kept quiet.

Pensioners and people who don't need to work don't pay NICs, so they are paying a lower percentage towards the NHS than working people. Given that some pensioners (not all, I know) have a higher income (and in many cases lower outgoings) than working people, I really don't think that's fair.

Given the age profile of this site, I know that will be an unpopular view.

Grany Tue 05-Nov-19 10:38:22

2h
There’s a vital statistic you’ve omitted, Mr Hancock.

Over 4 million people are now stuck on waiting lists for NHS operations.

The highest number since records began.

Untold misery for patients.

Anguish for doctors like me.

You are underfunding our NHS into oblivion ?
Quote Tweet

Eloethan Tue 05-Nov-19 19:04:19

Whilst there are some pensioners who are living very comfortably, there are also pensioners who are hardly managing at all.

Even people who are on average incomes or are comfortably off would find it difficult to pay for health care and may be discouraged from seeking medical help when it is needed, which in itself could in the long run create more expensive problems.

Pensioners may not be paying now but most people have worked for a large part of their lives and paid into the system during that time. I have been fortunate enough up until now not to have required many visits to doctors or hospitals and do not need to take any medicines. If and when the time comes that I require more visits to the doctor or hospital or in-patient treatment, I think it would be most unfair to, in my old age, to be expected to pay. Conversely, those who are unfortunate enough to have suffered a variety of illnesses or have a chronic health condition requiring more medical input should not, in my opinion, be penalised by being made to pay.

I personally think taxes should be raised to 50% for the top 5% of earners - and people and companies that are making enormous profits (and often paying poor wages to their employees) should be contributing more. Simplify the tax system and close those loopholes which are primarily being used to avoid taxes rather than encourage useful investment.

growstuff Tue 05-Nov-19 21:06:25

Eloethan I'm not disagreeing that there are some pensioners who are struggling. There are people of working age who are struggling too. Nevertheless, I find it unfair that people without a PAYE job (which includes pensioners) are taxed less as a percentage of their total income. I don't think it's appropriate to say that pensioners stop paying for healthcare when they retire. That might have worked when the average life expectancy was much lower, but not now. As far as I know, pensioners in other countries are expected to continue paying for healthcare according to their means.

growstuff Tue 05-Nov-19 21:13:03

The standard rate of National Insurance Contributions is now 12%, which is over half the standard tax rate. Pensioners and people with unearned income don't pay it, which is a considerable saving on the amount paid by working people, who are effectively paying for those who don't pay. The vast majority of retired people paid nowhere near that rate when they were working.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 06-Nov-19 08:39:19

Mental health cuts

Jonathan Ashworth

The Tories have cut over 5,000 mental health beds.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 14-Nov-19 13:19:39

Told you!

Worse figures since records began.

It will get worse and eventually implode and then be wide open for privatisation.

The Tories are on plan.