Think the NHS is safe in Tory hands? Think again

MaggieTulliver, Joelsnan, Oopsminty, Tooting29 are all spot on. The NHS should be protected and ring-fenced, but not before there is a massive overhaul of the way it is run, and its expenditure. As it currently stands, it's a money pit, and will continue to be so until difficult decisions are made. We are living longer, the population is increasing and medical advances are being made all the time - as a country, we need to re-define exactly what we expect of the NHS and what the demands are that it can reasonably be expected to meet, within a national financial framework. We are literally pouring billions into it every year - and much of it is wasted. I've worked in the NHS and it has saved my life, it's as dear to me as it is to any of you, and yes I will be voting Conservative at the next election.

So if we agree that the NHS is under funded- people let's put our heads together and think on how we can achieve a sustainably funded health service

So for example do we follow a National Insurance model.
National insurance was set up in 1911 as payments to pensions and it expanded to cover benefits and contributions to the new national health in 1948. In principal it is a way of raising monies that is familiar to everyone. So is a new National Health Insurance collected through the existing PAYE tax system a viable option and for self employed through a route similar to now?

These monies could be paid directly from the taxpayer to NHS England, NHS Scotland, NHS Wales, NHS Northern Ireland to manage the budgets depending on where the tax payer lives.

I must say I am encouraged by the proposed Citizens assembly on climate change, would something similar work for the NHS do you think?

42 years ago, I was between jobs and "temped" in the medical staffing department of a big teaching hospital. I earned twice as much as the employees for doing minimal work.
My role included vetting doctors CVs before it was decided they would be interviewed. In hindsight it was ridiculous and so inappropriate........it still goes on!

BTW this is the local hospital I have been referring to in my posts.

yeovilhospital.co.uk/yeovil-hospital-ae-waiting-times-amongst-best-england/

This is the care for the elderly set up in recently and very impressive

www.yeovilhospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Fopas-v3.pdf

If you object to people starting Labour-supporting threads - and, let's face it, the majority of people on here do not support Labour (particularly one headed up by Corbyn who gets a thrashing on even the most unlikely of topics. Actually, I think he's OK), then start a thread putting forward the case for other parties. Don't try and shut up someone who starts a thread or makes a post voicing an opinion with which you disagree.

Speaking for myself, I can find nothing to recommend the Conservative Party - but then I disagree with their core values anyway so whoever their MPs or their "leader" may be, I would never vote Conservative.

MPs who have moved to the Lib Dems are mostly Conservative, and the Lib Dems were largely supportive of Conservative policies when they went into coalition with them (Jo Swinson's record is evidence of that). I have no faith in them.

I prefer the Greens and Labour but will vote Labour. It is not perfect, and there are different opinions within the party, but at least it has been consistent in its wish to properly support public services, to oppose privatisation and to invest in environmental projects that will, in the long run, save on costs and resources. I am broadly supportive of the trade union movement but its insistence on prioritising jobs above almost everything else (eg supportive of a third runway at Heathrow,
HS2 and the arms industry) is a concern for me and, no doubt, some other Labour voters.

I think some sort of PR system may be preferable to the FPTP system we have now. However, it has to be a system that is more nuanced than the one on which we were previously asked to vote. If ever such an opportunity to vote for PR arises again, I think we (including myself) need much more information as to the various systems and their possible outcomes - and the time to digest that information.

Are you suggesting doctors shouldn't be vetted before being employed?

Maybe you were just lazy

Lemongrove thanks for your support I will let my words speak for themselves and others likewise. I wonder if they appreciate that they are doing their party of choice a disservice in their approach. Engage in debate yes but regurgitating tired mantra just switches people off.

Eloethan I have not objection to the thread if people want to discuss politics. It is a fascinating subject and lively respectful debate is healthy. We should show our politicians how it can be done rather than follow their example.

growstuff hilarious I was not the lazy one, untrained for my position totally, it was the NHS employees who were the lazy ones. My "temporary job" was unnecessary and a total waste of NHS money.

I worked for the NHS for 35 years as Ward Sister and Nurse Manager so have a little insight.

In 1948 the care available for patients was limited and, therefore, comparative in expensive. Since then, not only has the population exploded but, research has resulted in drugs and procedures undreamt of in those days. If there are treatments available, people have a moral right to them under the NHS system. Unlike the majority of businesses, the more efficient the NHS is, ie the more people treated, the more it costs. Efficiency does not, unlike industry, result in more profit.

I get a little tired hearing admin staff blamed for the waste in the NHS. Not that I believe there is no waste, that is inevitable in such a huge organisation. However, without admin staff supporting and enabling clinical staff to do their jobs, there would be no NHS.

Personally, I think the NHS should not be used as a political football. I would like to see it run outside the political system so that it does not matter who is in power, it can just carry on caring for patients. That would be difficult as the government of the time would still be allocating the finances - maybe an agreement that a certain percentage of the overall GNP treasury could be agreed to be kept aside for running the NHS. I am no accountant so am not sure if that would work: it is just a passing thought.

One other thing I would like to see is health and social care coming out of the same purse. We all know that social care is, on the whole, cheaper than keeping someone in a hospital bed so, maybe, if the NHS had control of social care too, the money could be shared out with better effect.

Yes, GrannyGravy13
I have always had a big issue with NHS employing external consultants at megabucks per hour KPMG, Ernst & Young et al to do something that internal managers should have been doing anyway.

What would you cut Opal? As I mentioned before, a significant percentage of the NHS is spent on the elderly, especially in the two years before death. Would you seriously just let them slip away quietly, which would save the NHS £billions?

Cult Corbyn is alive and kicking on here!!!

That is just ridiculous, GG13

Is that really the best you can do in the way of political debate?

Unlike the majority of businesses, the more efficient the NHS is, ie the more people treated, the more it costs. Efficiency does not, unlike industry, result in more profit.

I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head there, Teedle24. There is no earthly reason why the NHS has to be run at a profit. It only has to be so when private companies are involved. Which is ridiculous. Private companies shouldn't be making a direct profit from running this service provided by the state for the good of its citizens.

As I have frequently said before, the NHS is not a big black hole into which money just disappears. Every penny invested in it by the state goes to the private sector in one way or another, either directly through goods and services purchased for for the service or indirectly through the wages it pays its employees, which are then spent in the private sector. And a very large proportion of this money returns to the government by way of taxation. Income tax, National Insurance, company taxes or indirect taxes such as VAT. The only leakage is when goods for the NHS are purchased from non British companies; then the money goes abroad.

Governments which have a sovereign currency cannot run out of money. So long as there are resources to be bought it can issue as much money as it likes without fear of inflation. Financing the NHS is not a problem.

GrannyGravy So who was supposed to vet the applications? Presumably the person who usually did it wasn't there.

growstuff they were there sitting beside me.

Very very well said Tweedle.

BTW The NHS is more "efficient" than it's ever been if length of hospital stays is used as an indicator. When I was a child, I stayed in hospital for five miserable days when I had my tonsils removed. These days, a tonsillectomy is often performed in day surgery or with an overnight stay. Keyhole surgery means many people only have short stays in hospital.

When I had a heart attack, I was fitted with a stent within an hour, which means I don't have any permanent heart damage and was sent home after two days. In 1947, I'd almost certainly have died.

My mother died when she was 85, but had cancer three times - and was successfully treated.

I'm sure people can think of many more examples. Do people really want to go back to the way things were in 1947?Unfortunately, it's not free.

If that had been me, I would have told the temp agency I wasn't needed and asked them to find me another assignment.

Three Labour MPs - Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger and Angela Smith have joined the LibDems and many former Labour voters will vote LibDem at this election.

But Maizie, if the NHS were run totally in-house, there wouldn't be any opportunities for people to make a profit.

MaizieD
Many NHS trusts are tied into PFIs most of them being owned by overseas investors. These loan contracts are so tight and often dictate which companies do cleaning, what can be purchased and from where and the interest is at ridiculous rates. These contracts are almost impossible to get out of. The profits of which in the majority go offshore...your black hole.
BTW if we, as a sovereign currency can print as much as we want, why did Gordon Brown sell gold reserves?

varian There are more LD/Conservative marginals than there are LD/Labour marginals. The LDs need former Conservative supporters to vote for them.

The LDs are standing down in Beaconsfield to give Dominic Grieve, who's standing as an Independent, a better chance.

LDs and Labour attacking each other are, quite frankly, doing the Conservatives a big favour.

I have absolutely no idea why Brown sold our gold reserves. Joelsnan. Our currency hasn't been tied to gold since the early 1970s so absolutely no need to do that in order to 'raise money'.

I do think that politicians have taken a long time to accommodate their thinking to this and to realise that our economy can be run differently.

These contracts are almost impossible to get out of. The profits of which in the majority go offshore...your black hole.

And what percentage of spending on the NHS does this represent?

I have never voted Conservative but if I lived in Beaconsfield I would be happy to vote for Dominic Grieve. He is an absolute hero.