Mogg

Sorry, but I can't trawl back through all the posts to see if this has been said already, but surely the main problem with JRM's comment was the implication that the advice to stay out is wrong, full stop whereas had it not been for the inferior cladding, it would have been right - this advice was not issued for no good reason, and JRM has encouraged people now to always try to leave the building.

Not just the cladding. Fire doors left open also I believe. Main reason for fire doors is to allow people time to escape, how many times at places of work or wherever you see fire doors propped open? I am sure often people are not even aware they are fire doors or why they are there.

Dear, dear, some unpleasant posts to and about Anniebach on this thread, disgraceful from some in fact.
For anyone who thinks she is right wing, I can tell you, having had some real ding dongs with her in the past on GN political pages that she is left wing and has been an active Labour Party Member all her life.....until Corbyn took over.At first, she thought he was OK but then began to see through him, which was rather brave as it then put her at odds with all who had previously supported her on GN who were also left wing.
Nowadays, many LP voters see through him and say they can’t vote for him either.
If anyone here had lived in Aberfan and saw what happened then and afterwards, they would never forget it either.

My great grandfather, a Baptist minister who had been a coal miner ,in Aberfan, was a close friend of Keir Hardie, he worked with Hardie when he stood as MP for Merthyr. In this time the Labour Party was born.

When Hardie caused anger in the House for asking the bereaved and victims of a pit disaster in Pontypridd be remembered , my g grandfather had been one of the ministers
at the burials of the 251 miners, one letter from Hardie refers to his request in House.

I inherited my g grandfather’s journals and letters from Keir
Hardie. Have been asked to give them to the Party, to Aberystwyth University and a well know writer of political history who wants to write a book on my g grandfather.
They are still in the bank, I will have to decide.

I knew Nye Bevan and have a photograph of myself being nursed by Jennie Lee.

Michael Foot was a close family Friend , I met Tony Benn at
Michael’s house. My father attended Michael’s funeral.

The Kinnocks are friends of mine, Glen knew my Anglesey family and Neil my South Wales family and their long standing connections with the Labour Party.

Not unpleasant lemon at all. The person in question has clearly changed her stance since JC became leader. To point out that she is fooling no one, except herself (and you) is simply stating a fact.

Who was it said ‘There is nothing more conservative than an ageing socialist’ ?

The same person who said there is nothing more a Corbynite
than an aging communist ?

almost thought this was about me. lol .. that man is a disgrace to great britain...some people in those flats english is a second language. did any of the fireman speak another language vapart from english. ? fire brigade have always said shut the doors .get out and stay out..but no-one knew how fast that fire was going to go. thanks to london borough council putting infammable cladding on the tower of flats.

Apart from criticising the Fire Brigade for not changing its instructions, the report also makes the following points:

"Changes to the walls of the tower made during the refurbishment meant it was in breach of Regulation B(4), which requires the external walls of a building to “adequately resist the spread of flame”.

The aluminium composite material (ACM) cladding panels was the “primary cause” of fire spread up the tower, adding that it was “more likely than not” that the plastic insulation also contributed.

An ‘architectural crown’, also made of ACM, at the top of the tower was the cause of the most rapid horizontal fire spread
Flaws in the design of the kitchen window in Flat 16 allowed an “ordinary” and “perfectly foreseeable” kitchen fire to escape the room and ignite the cladding.

The building suffered a “total failure of compartmentation”, with missing self-closers on fire doors a crucial contributing factor."

Although the question of compartmentalisation is to be a major focus in the second report, it would appear that if the building had been designed and maintained properly, the damage from the fire would have been minimised. The advice to "stay put" would have been the correct one.

Rees-Mogg has encouraged people to ignore official advice in the future (which in most cases will be the correct advice), which could possibly cause unnecessary deaths.

By framing his comments as he did - and even worse, for Andrew Bridgen to support him as "clever" - he has certainly given the impression that the victims of Grenfell Tower had no common sense.

Why didn't he mention any of the other points in the report? Criticising the fire brigade for giving the wrong advice and the victims for having no common sense seems like a diversionary tactic.

lemongrove I admit I made a mistake over Anniebach' political affiliations. I could only judge by her posts, which seemed fairly right-wing to me (and I've never self-identified as socialist, Marxist or particularly left wing).

PS. My grandfather knew and was a colleague of Winston Churchill, but I can't say that makes me a Conservative.

BTW Nye Bevin was felt by many to be anti-Zionist and was criticised by many within the Labour Party for his stance on the creation of the state of Israel. We'll never know, but it would be interesting to know where he'd have fitted into today's Labour Party.

Nye Bevan supported the creation of Israel

I think how someone might have felt about the state of Israel and its establishment in 1948, is not necessarily a guide to how they might feel today if they were alive. The Middle East and the world have moved on

But he was still criticised as anti-Zionist. Check your history books Anniebach.

Yesbutnobut, I think you’re being very unpleasant indeed towards Annie. She has outlined her socialist credentials, though she shouldn’t have to on here. If it’s not good enough for you, I suggest you take a break from this thread. No one has to justify their thinking to others on Gransnet, although lots do, and that’s their choice and perfectly acceptable. Gransnetters enjoy lively debate but most try not to cross the line of unpleasantness.

Growstuff, an informative post, thank you. I’m not sure about the last sentence though.

The reason the ‘stay put ‘ advice is given is because of concerns of stairwells & lifts which are the most prone to the spread of fire ,smoke etc this combined with the amount of people living there has the potential to worsen an already desperate situation.
Our natural reaction is to get out.

Our criticism & anger should only be directed at those who negated to maintain the safest & most basic requirements for the buildings and yet allowed families to be housed there.

Generally, I avoid all battles between individuals, but I consider the attacks on Anniebach by Yehbutnobut to go way past anything acceptable and very close to reportable.

In the past all political parties, left right and centre, prided themselves on being 'broad churches'. Able to accommodate and accept people on both extremes. Both fervent rightwingers/leftwingers and those that were more centrist. The balance in each party shifted gently, first one way then the other and back again.

Sadly, in recent years both parties have fallen in to the hands of their extremists, who like all extremists spout a lot of tosh about democracy while acting like stalinists within their own party, brooking no deviation from the party line and rejecting all who do not stick to it religiously. In fact the nearest comparison one can give is with those cult religions who reject and anathamise any member who dares to query anything.

This is most obvious in the Labour party and anyone who can doubt AnnieBach's Labour and socialist credentials and history in the movement must, sadly, come from the extreme end of that party and while they must have the freedom to express their views, they should realise that the views they express must raise fears of 1984 in any non believer considering voting for Labour.

maddyone I'm sorry, but I'm not having that. How dare you suggest that Yesbutnobut leaves the thread?

I really only judge people by what they write and I can only say that in the time I've been a member of GN, I haven't seen Anniebach post anything socialist. I didn't know anything of her history and, frankly, I couldn't really care how many former Labour MPs she's met. As I wrote, I judge people by what they write.

As it happens, I think Corbyn is a neo-hippy twonk and I wish he'd retire gracefully because I honestly don't think the Labour Party has a hope of being elected while he's leader. I hope I'm wrong because I think it's tragic that the appalling Johnson government probably won't be overthrown.

MOnica I most certainly don't come from the extreme end of any party. What I'm saying is that I personally haven't seen Anniebach post anything socialist. I'm not a mindreader and had no idea of her past history or credentials.

growstuff My post was not written with you in mind.

I cannot speak for Anniebach but all her posts have been about her dislike of the current Labour party and attacking that cannot be described as not being socialist, just not being their definition of socialist.

As I said, political parties, especially the Labour party used to be broad churches encompassing a wide range of views, united by a core philosophy, this has now gone. Neither party has a core philosophy, or would even know what I was talking about if I were to ask what it was.

Both have become extremist cults.

Do tell growstuff , you are keen to judge, which party have I posted support for ?

Lest we forget.

Down and dirty.

Monica I don’t agree about you assertion that Labour has never had a core philosophy.

It is true until recently of the Tories.

Sorry whitewave both parties have always had core philosophies. Their aims, until recently, have been similar, the improvement of the welfare of people in this country. They have just disagreed on how the best way to achieve it.

In recent years, well, starting from 1979, both parties have moved to the extremes, where philosophies have been lost and both have become obsessed around political, political correctness,

I waslistening to the radio today about a group of Iranians, who supported the Ayatollah's take over, but not his policies. For reasons irrelevant the community now live in Albania, in a closed community. the reporter was talking from someone who had just left them and he described an ageing and no longer effective group, so obsessed with making sure members followed all the rules of the group, that their purpose has long been lost, the group almost forgotten with no new reruits. They sounded very like our two main political parties.

Some need to think back before the Corbyn leadership , how many
Labour MP’s were deselected because they didn’t vote with the whip ? How many were deselected because they criticised the party leader ? How many needed a police escort to attend a party conference ?

When did MP’s who were Jews leave the party ?

monica ? I read your post as did not have