Mogg

The reason the ‘stay put ‘ advice is given is because of concerns of stairwells & lifts which are the most prone to the spread of fire ,smoke etc this combined with the amount of people living there has the potential to worsen an already desperate situation.
Our natural reaction is to get out.

Our criticism & anger should only be directed at those who negated to maintain the safest & most basic requirements for the buildings and yet allowed families to be housed there.

Yesbutnobut, I think you’re being very unpleasant indeed towards Annie. She has outlined her socialist credentials, though she shouldn’t have to on here. If it’s not good enough for you, I suggest you take a break from this thread. No one has to justify their thinking to others on Gransnet, although lots do, and that’s their choice and perfectly acceptable. Gransnetters enjoy lively debate but most try not to cross the line of unpleasantness.

Growstuff, an informative post, thank you. I’m not sure about the last sentence though.

But he was still criticised as anti-Zionist. Check your history books Anniebach.

I think how someone might have felt about the state of Israel and its establishment in 1948, is not necessarily a guide to how they might feel today if they were alive. The Middle East and the world have moved on

Nye Bevan supported the creation of Israel

BTW Nye Bevin was felt by many to be anti-Zionist and was criticised by many within the Labour Party for his stance on the creation of the state of Israel. We'll never know, but it would be interesting to know where he'd have fitted into today's Labour Party.

lemongrove I admit I made a mistake over Anniebach' political affiliations. I could only judge by her posts, which seemed fairly right-wing to me (and I've never self-identified as socialist, Marxist or particularly left wing).

PS. My grandfather knew and was a colleague of Winston Churchill, but I can't say that makes me a Conservative.

Apart from criticising the Fire Brigade for not changing its instructions, the report also makes the following points:

"Changes to the walls of the tower made during the refurbishment meant it was in breach of Regulation B(4), which requires the external walls of a building to “adequately resist the spread of flame”.

The aluminium composite material (ACM) cladding panels was the “primary cause” of fire spread up the tower, adding that it was “more likely than not” that the plastic insulation also contributed.

An ‘architectural crown’, also made of ACM, at the top of the tower was the cause of the most rapid horizontal fire spread
Flaws in the design of the kitchen window in Flat 16 allowed an “ordinary” and “perfectly foreseeable” kitchen fire to escape the room and ignite the cladding.

The building suffered a “total failure of compartmentation”, with missing self-closers on fire doors a crucial contributing factor."

Although the question of compartmentalisation is to be a major focus in the second report, it would appear that if the building had been designed and maintained properly, the damage from the fire would have been minimised. The advice to "stay put" would have been the correct one.

Rees-Mogg has encouraged people to ignore official advice in the future (which in most cases will be the correct advice), which could possibly cause unnecessary deaths.

By framing his comments as he did - and even worse, for Andrew Bridgen to support him as "clever" - he has certainly given the impression that the victims of Grenfell Tower had no common sense.

Why didn't he mention any of the other points in the report? Criticising the fire brigade for giving the wrong advice and the victims for having no common sense seems like a diversionary tactic.

almost thought this was about me. lol .. that man is a disgrace to great britain...some people in those flats english is a second language. did any of the fireman speak another language vapart from english. ? fire brigade have always said shut the doors .get out and stay out..but no-one knew how fast that fire was going to go. thanks to london borough council putting infammable cladding on the tower of flats.

The same person who said there is nothing more a Corbynite
than an aging communist ?

Not unpleasant lemon at all. The person in question has clearly changed her stance since JC became leader. To point out that she is fooling no one, except herself (and you) is simply stating a fact.

Who was it said ‘There is nothing more conservative than an ageing socialist’ ?

My great grandfather, a Baptist minister who had been a coal miner ,in Aberfan, was a close friend of Keir Hardie, he worked with Hardie when he stood as MP for Merthyr. In this time the Labour Party was born.

When Hardie caused anger in the House for asking the bereaved and victims of a pit disaster in Pontypridd be remembered , my g grandfather had been one of the ministers
at the burials of the 251 miners, one letter from Hardie refers to his request in House.

I inherited my g grandfather’s journals and letters from Keir
Hardie. Have been asked to give them to the Party, to Aberystwyth University and a well know writer of political history who wants to write a book on my g grandfather.
They are still in the bank, I will have to decide.

I knew Nye Bevan and have a photograph of myself being nursed by Jennie Lee.

Michael Foot was a close family Friend , I met Tony Benn at
Michael’s house. My father attended Michael’s funeral.

The Kinnocks are friends of mine, Glen knew my Anglesey family and Neil my South Wales family and their long standing connections with the Labour Party.

Dear, dear, some unpleasant posts to and about Anniebach on this thread, disgraceful from some in fact.
For anyone who thinks she is right wing, I can tell you, having had some real ding dongs with her in the past on GN political pages that she is left wing and has been an active Labour Party Member all her life.....until Corbyn took over.At first, she thought he was OK but then began to see through him, which was rather brave as it then put her at odds with all who had previously supported her on GN who were also left wing.
Nowadays, many LP voters see through him and say they can’t vote for him either.
If anyone here had lived in Aberfan and saw what happened then and afterwards, they would never forget it either.

Not just the cladding. Fire doors left open also I believe. Main reason for fire doors is to allow people time to escape, how many times at places of work or wherever you see fire doors propped open? I am sure often people are not even aware they are fire doors or why they are there.

Sorry, but I can't trawl back through all the posts to see if this has been said already, but surely the main problem with JRM's comment was the implication that the advice to stay out is wrong, full stop whereas had it not been for the inferior cladding, it would have been right - this advice was not issued for no good reason, and JRM has encouraged people now to always try to leave the building.

Gonegirl
Wed 6 Nov 17:24:08

Unfortunately, not everyone possesses emotional empathy, cannot understand another's pain or feelings and find themselves unable to express it in RL let alone in the written word.

grapefruitpip
Wed 6 Nov 20:45:59

Nasty post
But I see you say I'm out so perhaps that is just as well.

Annie
Perhaps you could inform 'some' posters of your 'right wing history in the Labour Party. The diaries you have of a very famous ( now dead) person who was instrumental in starting the Labour Party. The 2 once leaders of the Labour Party. one now dead but the other a personal friend. I don't think he would be too pleased if he knew of your 'right wing' credentials, would he ?

I'm still wondering about the specific reasons the JLM won't support Labour.

Well you can vote Labour then.

What a relief.

I resigned as a Labour Party member recently because it is no longer the Labour Party I belonged to for over 50 years.

I am a socialist not a Marxist and could never support an anti
semetic leader

Rees-Mogg should have kept his mouth shut, as should Andrew Bridgen, who tried to defend him as "clever". Rees-Mogg knows perfectly well what kind of image of himself he wishes to portray.

Fortunately, we're not yet ruled by lynch mobs, so Ms Cotton won't be prosecuted unless there's clear evidence that she broke the law.

I'm astonished maddyone. When I first joined GN and started to read some comments, I felt that Anniebach's views were right wing. I was very surprised to read that she'd ever been a member of the Labour Party. Obviously my mistake.

I had forgotten about Ms Cotton, seems survivors and families of the victims want her and other senior officers to be prosecuted