Corbyn

Anti Zionism is a cop out for Anti Semetism

Sorry maddyone that isn't strictly true. Anti-zionists oppose the expansion of the state of Israel and believe Palestinians should be permitted to return to the land they once lived in. The state of Israel can remain it can't expand more and it must stop shooting imprisoning and sactioning other peoples and countries.
And anti-zionism has absolutely nothing to do with anti-semitism indeed some Orthodox Jews are anti-zionists.

I’m afraid I agree with Annie.

So Orthodox Jews who are anti-zionist are anti-semitic? Isn't saying that anti-semitic?

I hope that others can see your logic, trisher...

trisher They're sometimes called "self-haters", which is ironic considering they're often the most orthodox. Many Orthodox Haredis oppose the state of Israel because they see it as secular.

maddyone How far do you think the Jewish homeland should extend?

Oh I doubt it MaizieD but it does amuse me when people throw accusations about without fully investigating and considering the implications of what they claim!

Oh please! Anti-Zionism is NOT a cop-out for anti-semitism. For those of you who think this way, I would recommend a visit to the web site :
www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org

I wish it could amuse me, but it doesn't.

Zionism is at the heart of the attack on the Labour Party. I am happy for anyone to give me further information about the Labour Party's views as I am not a member so am only seeing this from the outside looking in. Many in the party, it seems to me, do not want to sign up to all the points of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of anti-Semitism. The ones they do not want to sign up to are those that are nothing to do with anti-Semitism but are designed to prohibit any criticism of Israel and its founding principles.

Attacking Labour will not cause this argument to cease, not will attacking freedom of speech where criticism of the state of Israel is concerned.

I see, Maddyone, you say you believe the Jews have a right to a country just for themselves - although I could be reading this wrongly. If you do, what do you base this on and does that mean you believe people should not be able to criticise what some believe to be the way the country, they see as their God given homeland, behaves?

Sorry growstuff I didn't mean to make light of things. I do think one of the most worrying things is that the misuse and over use of the term anti-semitism does devalue the whole idea and that perhaps that is what some on the far right are hoping.

As Jews themselves don't agree about the definition of Zionism, I don't feel that I'm qualified to comment. However, I do respect the views of people like Chomsky and Finkelstein; firstly, they're much cleverer and knowledgeable than I am, secondly, they're both Jewish.

This is what Finkelstein has to say about the anti-semiticism "crisis" in the Labour Party:

normanfinkelstein.com/2019/02/26/that-labour-antisemitism-crisis-in-numbers/

No need to apologise trisher. I knew you meant it ironically. I despair that people read and believe labels without thinking about the issues and researching them.

FWIW My own personal view is that I don't believe for one moment that Corbyn is anti-Semitic. Nevertheless, certain sections of the Labour Party are strongly associated with pro-Palestine movements for very worthy reasons. Some Jewish spokespeople claim anti-Semiticism and anti-Zionism are the same, although others don't. Unfortunately, for some of those supporting Palestine, anti-Zionism and anti-Semiticism have become blurred. I think there are elements of anti-Semiticism amongst some supporters of Palestine and critics of the Israeli state. I don't know whether it's been exaggerated or not or whether Corbyn critics have used it as a weapon to attack him (maybe both, but I don't know for sure).

I do think that Corbyn has been slow to react to the attacks and to take action where necessary. He's been politically naïve, but I still don't believe that he himself is anti-Semitic.

It saddens me that the media can go on the attack and quote a couple of isolated incidents without evaluating the whole picture. The public then picks up on the attacks to support their own beliefs and the whole thing escalates. That's how propaganda works.

PS. I have issues with Corbyn, but they're nothing to do with anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, it rarely seems possible to discuss serious issues because it's impossible to get beyond the anti-Semitic, Communist label.

All my own very humble opinion.

''Anti Zionism is a cop out for Anti Semetism''

NO Annie, it is absolutely and totally, NOT so.
How anyone can make such an uninformed comment is beyond me..

It's what some people writing in the JC and elsewhere claim. Others disagree. You'd probably be better taking it up with somebody who can justify his/her reasoning.

Spot on growstuff!

Corbyn politically naive !

I tried to think of Corbyn as politically naive ( on anti Semitism) but no longer! No, he must know exactly what he’s doing and what many around him with are doing.
He has allied himself with the Palestinian cause for a very long time which has made him turn a blind eye to how his supporters are being as anti-semitic as they can get away with being.A strong Leader would have nipped things in the bud long ago.

I really don't understand your post lemongrove. You seem to be supporting the view that Corbyn is politically naïve.

I would agree with you that Corbyn isn't a strong leader, but that doesn't make him anti-Semitic.

Who exactly are the people "around him" who are "doing" anything anti-Semitic and what are they doing?

All those who are LP members and have been called out on anti-semitic utterances, ( many!) which is why Corbyn and the LP have been ‘getting it in the neck’ for so long.
I think he is so enmeshed in the Palestinian cause that he doesn’t want to come down hard on anti-semitic views until he is absolutely forced by public opinion to do so.That, combined with being a weak leader generally.

It will affect votes for him, that’s for sure.

How many lemongrove? Norman Finkelstein (see link above) doesn't seem to think there has been that much. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm happy to be corrected.

And, yes, I agree he's a weak leader. My personal opinion is that he would have been a good primary school teachers (in the 1960s). He could have made the naughty children sit in a circle, sing Kumbaya, say sorry and all would be hunky-dory. Unfortunately, real adults can't be treated like that and decisions have to be made, even if you don't like making them and some people won't like you for them.

And. yes, votes will be affected and I don't think Labour has a hope in hell of winning this election.

But I still don't accept that makes him personally anti-Semitic.

Surely Corbyn knew the views of Jewdas Seder when he chose to spend Passover with them ?