Andrew Marr show today...

Urmstongran I think we have learned from history (or should have) that harsh penalties to not act as deterrents.

Think back to the 19thC when children were executed for poaching (or sent to the colonies). Think of the murders that have been committed against family or close friends that weren't prevented by the existence of capital punishment.

We need something other than deterrents.

Thank you for using my words in your latest tirade lemongrove....as they say "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". On Gransnet for "years and years" eh? Thankfully I never noticed.
Otherwise, I'm most interested to hear the thoughtful personal opinions of sensible, civilised posters - whatever their politics!

urmstongran, I understand the anger and desire to improve public safety but to suggest the two young people murdered on Friday were misguided because of their choice of work suggests that those working in the criminal justice system are misguided. I'm sure that wasn't your intention.

Some people lie, cheat and manipulate as the killer Khan did. Anyone who has worked with offenders will confirm that rehabilitation of some people is possible. I'm not convinced that terrorists like Mr Khan are good prospects for rehabilitation. Our focus there should be on less dangerous individuals.

I was working when the Public Protection Indefinite sentences were found to be unlawful. I visited a number of young men serving such sentences, they were without exception the product of the most abusive, neglectful and damaging childhoods. Inevitably, they started using drugs and drinking alcohol at young ages, were hard to reach by services and ended up in a real mess, hence the PII. They seemed to be thriving in the prison system, where they had the clear boundaries and routines they so needed but never had experienced. Every visit, I'd shown certificates confirming they were passing drug tests, working in groups to put a stop to impulsive behaviour, in groups looking at anger management, especially in domestic situations. Since then, we've lost large numbers of the experienced prison staff, including probation officers, to austerity.

We need to invest again in early years, in supporting young parents who are struggling, to rebuild our police, social work, probation, mental health, drug/alcohol support services. I'm not a liberal who says everybody can be rehabilitated, some people are beyond that. However, if we focus in on early years, the evidence suggests we'll have fewer of those hard to reach adults.

Can I point out Urmstngran that this was no ‘terrorist who murdered’. This man had not murdered anyone up until this awful attack.

No system is perfect. Real murderers and rapists get released to murder and rape again. But they are only briefly in the news, not ever worth a front page.

The two young people who were murdered were part of the rehabilitation programme

I realise that MaizieD and it’s heartbreaking to think that those two young, generous hearted (but in my opinion misguided) souls have been murdered.

Reaching out to these animals is not the answer as far as I’m concerned.

We have locked up the Yorkshire Ripper for life, ditto Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, plus the Kray brothers.

Why do we insist on hand wringing for terrorists who murder and try to ‘understand’ their mindset?

Who cares? I don’t. I’m bluddy angry that they are ever allowed back on our streets. I don’t trust their weasel words.

Firstly, the interview was how Johnson designed it to be, a fog.
Marr is good but way too polite for Johnson. Marr asked the right questions although he should have chosen less subjects to focus on.
It doesn’t matter how Johnson tried to rewrite history, Johnson and the Conservative party have been in power for 10 years and had many opportunities to change this process if they cared to. His latest propaganda is to say he has only been in office for x weeks therefore unable to address the current NHS crisis, social care crisis, police crisis, security crisis, homeless crisis ..he must have forgotten he has been a member of the Conservative part throughout their 10 year Austerity massacre.
Lie after lie is exposed, he doesn’t even blink, how anyone can overlook this mans breathtaking disregard for the truth is beyond me.
I’m sad that people watching him, ordinary people collude with his spin. If he were my son I would despair.
..and yet Brexit has put blinkers on so many.

The two young people who were murdered were part of the rehabilitation programme. It strikes me that had it not been them, but two entirely unconnected passers by, they would have been castigated as soft lefty liberals...and demonised for trusting...

GREAT NEWS!!

Maybe the tide of liberalism is turning.

jolbook I was "happy" to hear that also.

I also need to get dressed and get my "flabby btm" to the gym

Latest news. They have already started sending back to jail the terrorists" on release". Thank God.

note to self; get dressed and do some work.

Agreed GG13 very fishy!

She was accused at the time by many of being bought off.

Yes GG13 as fishy as Billingsgate.???

That would be the Ms Chakrabarti who led the investigation into antisemitism in the Labour Party, found none, and was immediately elevated into the House of Lords......fishy ??

Apologies jolbrook

Agree with you about the AM interview with Chakrabahty jolnan

Another point of interest. Kay Burley had an excellent interview with an ex. prison Governor turned Gov. advisor. He said that the attrocity on London Bridge was not the fault of either political party; just institutional failure.

Going back to AM on Sunday. He had Baroness Chakrabarti in subdued mood I think. You could almost read her mind. She knew she was seeing the end of an era of liberalism because the British public have had enough of pussyfooting around jihadists. Marr gave her an easy time.

WWMK2, blimey, incarceration is not stoning, or beheading.

I am not horrified or devastated, I am angry that two young lives have been lost due to "bloody do-gooders" being hoodwinked by that vicious, devious BA***RD.

I have just spent a month in Kenya, after their devastating terrorist attack on a shopping mall several years ago, they have strict security in every shopping complex, including small/medium sized supermarket.

THE UK MUST DO MORE TO PROTECT ITS CITIZENS, end of!!!

Our lives matter also, not just the terrorists.

Just to add, there will need to be a proper investigation into this done as soon as possible after the GE.

It isn’t just about the two victims of this awful attack in London though.It can’t be just about what Jack Merritt would or wouldn’t have wanted.What about others that may be murdered in the future?
It shows a very admirable and charitable attitude from the young man’s Father, but it’s the duty of the government to keep us all as safe as possible, and if it means doing something other than the present system, then it has to be done, on terrorist offenders at least.

I can absolutely understand you horror and devastation. I feel the same.

But laws are and never should be made emotionally they are made clinically and in the cold light of day.

We are a civilised nation (at the moment) and along with most European countries have standards about the way a human being should be treated. We are not some Middle East faction or state where heads are chopped off, women are stoned and people are regularly whipped.

I believe we are better than that.

and we won't be allowed to go over there to replace them

No need to go over there jura we need our U.K. Border Control to be MUCH tighter. Pritti Patel is just the woman to tackle it and as she is a woman of colour and the daughter of legal (important point) immigrants she can’t be accused of racism either.

Theresa May was a rubbish Home Secretary. The Police Federation hated her.

WWMK2 The young people mudered on Friday have had theirs taken from them in the most vicious and evil crime.

As much as I am all for each and everyone's human rights, some people are so depraved and evil they should be locked up and the key thrown away.

The UK has got to be seen to be firm on all acts of terror and terrorists, otherwise they are just laughing at us and shall continue with their awful atrocities.

Here is his poem:

“I write so my words become a soothing light
I write so I can enter the coldest of hearts
I write so I can speak to those locked off
From the world engulfed in the blinding absence of sight
I write so I can express what I feel is right”

They just say what some liberals want to hear. All happy clappy and nice to one another.

Fool me once ... etc

CAn you imagine the pain and immense sadness and grief of the two families? And what it must feel like for Johnson to use their photos and tragedy to further his ambitions? You can't???

Urmston - about those boats... our borders have until now, been fiercely guarded (you really should take a trip to Calais and spend time there, not jus drive in and out) by French SAS type troops, armed to the teeth- rows and row of razor wire up very high fecing - 24/7. Recently, due to all the Brexit aggro - they have perhaps been less 'keen' and getting tired of helping partners who no longer want to be. All lorries are currently checked before boarding, in France, with dogs and carbon dioxide probes- etc. But if we leave, and so much more so, if we leave without a Deal - all those armed 24/7 checks by 100s of CRS (special armed forces) will stop - and we won't be allowed to go over there to replace them.

So, be honest with yourself- will there me more or less....?