Sensible discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls

The trouble is Trisher, if you put that in the DM some people would be up for it.

I do agree that there is no hurry and the LP can take it's time to decide how it goes forward. That will have more effect on who they chose as a leader than looking backwards.

I do understand Grandad's views about the unions but they seem to need a face-lift if they are to appeal to the new generations. Many who would not have seen themselves as "workers" in the past but as aspiring middle-class, now do as the class system does not have the simplicity or cohesion it once did. You also have a younger tranche who were educated to a higher level so would, perhaps, not have seen themselves as trades unionists. However, they are not wealth-gatherers either so probably do need an updated union structure. And there are the so-called "self-employed". Big changes for everyone to cope with.

The English Nationalists of the Tory party may have held these changes at bay with Brrrrexit but they too will have to face them sooner or later. Their new voters were won mainly from the 'leave' contingent and, as the YouGov analysis tells us age is still the biggest dividing line in British politics. In fact, they say, for every 10 years older a voter is, their chance of voting Tory increases by around nine points, and the chance of them voting Labour decreases by eight points.

Without Brexit, they will not have the same pull in the next election whether they run the full five years or not. The Labour Party has to look ahead and see how it can increase its appeal when we know what Brexit we have got and what it is doing to our country.

Eloethan I do not think that the Trades Unions were so much in control of the Labour Party as McCluskey appears to be now. They worked in conjunction with each other but often, too, at odds.

Well if the trades unions are so powerful now and McCluskey so influential, why is it that for the last ten years wages have stagnated and, in some cases, gone backwards?

Meanwhile, the wealthiest and most powerful in this country have experienced a financial bonanza. They didn't need trades unions to do it - they just formed cosy little clubs of self-interest and awarded themselves huge increases.

McCluskey is the leader of one union with about a million members. He can't even claim to represent the majority of trade union members never mind all the people whom Labour needs to vote for them.

Eloethan perhaps because the party McCluskey supports (or helps to run?) has not been in power despite his best efforts? Perhaps, although he has a million members, millions more don't trust him or his influence?

I don't see why he is any more unworthy or untrustworthy than the land and asset-rich individuals, and CEOs of huge conglomerates, who, unlike many people, have benefited enormously since the 2008 crash. Their interests have been promulgated extensively by the mainstream media, including often wealthy foreign-based newspaper proprietors who use their power to tarnish the characters of anyone who seeks a fairer distribution of the profits that workers have contributed to.

Growstuff in regard to your post @13:30 today, Len McCluskey is the General Secretary of the Unite Union and in that role works under the direction of the General Executive Committee of Unite which is an elected lay member body. All other UK Unions operate in a similar fashion to the above which make up the approximately six and a half million members of the trade union movement in Britain at this time.

Until 2015 the trade unions did not hold any great number of seats on the Labour Party National Executive Committee as those unions always trusted the Parliamentary Labour Party to act in the interests of its members in conjunction with those of the wider electorate. In the foregoing, the formation of the NHS and the huge Council House Building programs under the Atlee Government are just two examples of what can be achieved by the Labour Party when working in conjunction with the broader Labour movement.

The bringing into legislation the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 was a great example of joint cooperation and one which involved the Conservative Party and the Labour Party working with each other and alongside the Trade Unions to enable that fundamental act which is still in major effect today.

Sadly such cooperation is no longer in existence following the Thacher and Major governments series of anti-trade union bills from 1979 to 1997 and the refusal of the Blair administration to repeal any of that legislation from the above date until 2010.

The trade union movement expected the restoration of joint cooperative working when Blair took office in the same manner as there had been with Atlee, Wilson and initially Callahan. However, today Blair is perceived I feel as the Labour leader that totally betrayed the broader labour movement and therefore the trade unions have demanded and received a large say in the administration and policy making of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

It will I believe take a great deal to persuade the lay activists in the trade unions and broader Labour movement to place trust in any political figure once Jeremy Corbyn is gone as that is where the real power is to be found in the movement. Rebbeca Long-Bailey has worked hard to build trust with those activists, but already we can witness a right wing media campaign building up against her as we have seen with Corbyn.

With trade union membership rising in Britain in the private sector following the victories the unions have had in the courts in last two years, there are many in those trade unions who feel that they do not require any assistance from Britain's politicians. After all, they have received no effective support from that body In over half a century no matter how much funding those trade union members have given to the Parliamentary Party.

Anyway, we are now off to the lounge of this hotel to begin our new year's eve pre-dinner celebrations with an excess of wine and food I confidently expect.

Unions had power in Attlee, Wilson and Callaghan governments ! ! !

I have been quite impressed with Frances O'Grady, leader of the TUC. She spoke very well for the Remain side in the EU referendum debates. Does she have much power or influence in the Labour Party.

She's always very measured isn't she varian and very knowledgable. I would like her in a position where we see more of her as she is interesting to listen to.

Thinking back to the days of Harold Wilson, I seem to remember the man in charge of the TUC, and of course it was a man (Vic Feather??) seemed to have a lof of clout- policy was decided over beer and sandwiches.

Yes, I know all that Grandad. I honestly didn't need a lecture. McCluskey (at most) represents less than 10% of the votes Labour needs to win power.

BTW Other unions aren't all like Unite. It might be the biggest, but other unions include the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Nursing, the teaching unions, UNISON (which represents a range of workers mainly in the health and education sectors) and many more. McCluskey doesn't speak for them all and some of the really dislike him.

I agree with you about Frances O'Grady varian.

Rebecca Long-Bailey as leader of the Labour Party would ensure a Conservative government for at least ten years.

NALGO amalgamated into UNISON; NALGO did have over 700,000 members.
The PCS, the FDA and Prospect to name a few others.

I doubt that their members all support McCluskey.

If Labour choose her it shows they have learned nothing.If I was wrong about the 'will of the people' regarding Brexit then the 'will of the people' certainly don't want a left wing government any time soon.

I think UNISON now has over a million members, but it keeps on merging, so I'm not sure. Most non-teaching staff in schools and many NHS and council workers belong to UNISON, who regard UNITE as the bully boys of the trade union movement. I don't suppose UNITE members even see them as proper working-class because they don't get their hands dirty. I'm not sure whether the fact that UNISON is predominantly female and low-paid has anything to do with it. My own experience of union membership is that the unions are extremely partisan and tribal.

Callistemon Quote [ NALGO amalgamated into UNISON; NALGO did have over 700,000 members.
The PCS, the FDA and Prospect to name a few others.

I doubt that their members all support McCluskey.] End Quote.

Callistemon, Dave Prentis has been the General Secretary of Unison and has been since 2001 by being re-elected into that position no less than on four occasions.

As at the last election Prentis received seventy seven percent of the ballot. So, could you please inform me Callistemon why Unison members would be in any way supporting Len McCluskey who is the General Secretary of the Unite Union a totally separate trade union organisation?

I think you misunderstood my post totally Grandad, perhaps it was not clear.

McCluskey is one of the powers behind the throne of Corbyn, ie the Labour Party.
Very much in evidence as such.

Many members of all these other unions may not trust that power behind the throne and may well decide not to vote Labour, perhaps because of that.

Of course, many of them would not vote labour anyway.

I hope that is clearer.

Callistemon

I didn't mean vote for their TU leader, I meant vote in a GE.

I didn't actually say vote, I said support ie support his views.

growstuff Quote [Most non-teaching staff in schools and many NHS and council workers belong to UNISON, who regard UNITE as the bully boys of the trade union movement. I don't suppose UNITE members even see them as proper working-class because they don't get their hands dirty. ]End Quote.

growstuff could you please post a link in regard to your above statement that "Unison Members regard the Unite Union as the bully boys of the trade union movement"?

I also view your statement of " I don't suppose Unite Union members even see them as proper working-class because they don't get their hands dirty" as "total nonsense" unless you can provide evidence of that being a widespread feeling within the Unite Union members?

Do you understand what I meant now, Grandad?

Callistemon in regard to your post @13:12 and 13:14 today, Len McCluskey speaks on behalf of the lay member General Gereral Executive Commitee of the Unite Union. In that, he is the public face and voice of the views held by that body, and that is his premier role.

The Unite Union through the General Executive and other leading trade sector committees have consistently supported Jeremy Corbyn in his role of leader of the Parliamentary Labour Party due to his policy support of ending Gig Economy terms of working and Zero Hour Employment Contracts.

As stated McCluskey is just the public face and voice of those various bodies within the Unite Union.

Callistemon, I believe that all forum members can understand from your post @21:32 yesterday (01/01/20) exactly what you meant in that text.

Unison as a union has its own organizational structure and Dave Prentis speaks well on behalf of the elected bodies within that structure in exactly the same way as Len McCluskey speaks on behalf of similar elected bodies within the Unite Union.

Unison supported the Labour Party holding a Brexit remain stance in the year prior to the General election, but the Labour Party Annual Delegate conference voted for a second referendum should the Labour Party gain government.

That is democracy, and all attending with the exception of the usual undermining Corbyn Labour MPs stood by that majority decision following the conference.

As a remain voter in the Referendum, I have never supported a second referendum, but that was the decision of conference, and I then along with many others accepted that view.

I believe the Unison Executive did similar with Dave Prentis pointing out their reservations on the matter, but he also emphasised the need for all to "get behind that decision."

I believe that all forum members can understand from your post exactly what you meant

Well, with respect, you didn't.

As an ex Union rep and long-time member of two different unions (change of career, retired now) I know exactly what I meant.
It was as explained in my subsequent post, apparently not clear enough in my first.

Possibly you are not not the only Trade Union advocate on this forum and I would bet that not all trust McCluskey or like his influence.