Sensible discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls

Well Said Ilovecheese

@AdamCli

I want labour friends of Israel banned who support brutality and illegality of the Israeli state is incompatible with any values I hope the labour party has.

@mirabarhillel

The @BoardofDeputies is a branch of the Israeli Embassy. Until is abandons its sectarian wars with the Reform and Liberal Jews, it has no business sticking its nose in internal matters of a party it will never support. twitter.com/TomLondon6/status/1217787716043182081

RLB supported by the mighty Bakers Union.

I hope Bernie Sanders win to be POTUS a good socialist.

@dinamoh - I agree - up to a point - but what about people like Zac Goldsmith? It has become a mockery.

I am a TU Member and a LP member. I am torn. My two top candidates are Kier Starmer - becuase he will woo the centrists, and RBL, because she sits well with my view of the world. Need to make my mind up! Do not want an Undercover Blue leader.they have to have vision, and be up for change and a little bit of rebellion.

Grany I don't understand why the Board of Deputies holds such influence either. They are a right wing organisation. I don't think it helps when people refer to "the Jewish community " as if it is a solid mass with a single opinion. Jewish people are as diverse in their opinions as anyone else, some right and some left wing, some critical of Israeli actions and some not.
But any potential leader of the Labour party will now be afraid of being labelled anti semitic so has to tread very carefully in order not to suffer the same fate as Jeremy Corbyn.

Although much to commend her I am still not sure exactly where LN stands, or rather if that agrees with what I would like to see. It is up to the membership. Personally, I would much rather each party says exactly what it means.

The choice of one leader could forever lose the many socially conservative voters (mainly older) who "lent" the Conservatives their votes this time. However, I am not sure they are not lost already or rather that their return depends more on what Mr Johnson does than on the Labour Party stance.

It is equally true that the choice of a leader could loose the younger and newer (generally) members or both. Trying to ride both horses is a tricky thing.

Lisa Nandy was interviewed by Andrew N said a private person a Labour activist on twitter who tweeted about the BOD
There should be a right to call out Israel war crimes against Palestinians not be called an antisemite because of it, people should be able to stand up for the poor Palestinians.

Nandy said this person should be thrown out of the Labour Party.

And the BOD who are right wing conservative supporters are insisting that their 10 pledges must be followed. Most of the Labour leader hopefuls have signed up to these pledges but not all.
Why do the BOD have the right to say what Labour should do? And what about the Tory Party?

What does Grandad1943 think of this 10 pledges that Labour Party must follow because BOD says so?

I think I will give my vote to RLB though not sure yet And Richard Burgun as deputy.

Not all Jews organisations agree with what the BOD are demanding.

Apologies that Should be "Nandy" in my first paragraph of my post above, not "Nany"

From media reports, it would seem that Lisa Nany had a very good meeting with Len McCluskey. I am now wondering whether McCluskey will try to persuade the Unite Union General Executive to nominate her as opposed to Long-Bailey.

If the above is in fact the case, the next meeting of the Unite Union executive could see a very interesting debate.

I have to say that Nandy is coming forward as the candidate who seems to be drawing support from all sections of the movement. She certainly has the charisma for the job and calls things exactly as they are.

I am now at least thinking of making Nandy my first choice preference on the ballot form as opposed to Rebbeca Long-Bailey.

Interesting times indeed.

RLB wants to abolish the House of Lords which I don't think is a good idea as they are quite good at holding governments of either hue to account.

ilove I read that M only offered or nobody and 30% chose nobody ( iyswim)

I'd say it is too close to call yet. Momentum have backed Rebecca Long-Bailey but that is not a surprise.

I decided not to join but am now feeling a bit fed up of the idea of RLB as leader.

I am still keeping a very close eye on the election although I have now decided not to join, or at least not to join at this point.

I notice today starts the "second stage" and that there are 10 candidates, five for Leader and five for the deputy who will be seeking local party and affiliated groups nominations. Although it is not "my" party I am very impressed by the cross-section of the party it takes to even be in the ballot.

I think it has all be spelt out elsewhere but if you are just learning how this works, as I am, then this may help. Each person must be nominated by either 5% of the Constituency Labour Party (33 CLPs) or by three affiliated organisation which must include two trade unions and add up to 5% of the affiliated membership. This sounds extremely complicated to me but I imagine shows you have good backing from longstanding bodies attached to the LP. Apparently, to succeed with the second part you would need one big trade union - Unite, UNISON, GMB, Usdaw of CWU plus another union and an affiliate.

Lisa Nandy now has the endorsement of the NUM (and even I know what that stands for) and seems to be on course to a possible early pass into Round Three - but that's just my reading of it.

Rebecca Long-Bailey (who said in an interview that yes, there is a hyphen) seems very quiet. There seems to be some in-fighting in the camp. Perhaps someone can enlighten us. Is the Labour left in disarray?

LN gives a speech today which we can only hope will be reported.

Tomorrow the window for registered supporters closes at 5 p.m., and Momentum release ballot results (would love to know of what).

Friday: RL-B launches campaign with a speech in the evening.

Saturday: Party hustings in Liverpool in the morning. Does this mean all candidates will be there as Keir Starmer is at the Fabian conference which runs from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m.

Grandad1943: It may be that motor manufacturers will build electric cars outside Britain after Brexit although this may depend on any deal that is concluded between the UK and the EU. It may also depend, ultimately, on the size of the market for electric cars in the UK. As it is, projections suggest that, by 2021, China will dominate the production of electric cars, producing more than the US (the second largest), Germany, France and Japan combined.

I agree with you that it is difficult to predict the political landscape. We've had several examples over the past few years when the experts have got it wrong, even when predicting an event very near at hand. I do not agree that it is clear that we will see massive changes in infrastructure, social fabric and economic outlook because of Brexit. Having had some experience of forecasting, I do not believe it is possible to predict the future accurately, whether we are in or out of the EU. Projections are too regularly wrong to be given a high degree of confidence. What is clear that we are undergoing fundamental change because of, to name but three factors, the internet, recognition of climate change and rapid world population growth over the past 100 years. As regards Brexit, the forecasts of collapse if we even voted to leave have so far proved groundless. I suspect we will muddle through but like everyone else, I cannot be sure.

Cunco, in regard to your post @15:10 today, there is much I can agree with in your view of the transition of the vehicle production industry. In that Honda are to end their production at their Swindon plant later this year, while as has been stated Nissan is expected to announce the closure of their car production plant in Sunderland.

Several other manufacturers are expected to announce the closure of their production plants in Britain over the next few years, and as you state Cunco the foregoing is not all in regard to Brexit, but due also to the decline of conventional diesel and petrol powered vehicles.

However, the crucial factor in the above would be that no new production facilities for electric vehicles have been announced by any manufacturer as a planned location in Britain. That is, I believe, solely due to British electorate voting to be no longer a member of the worlds largest free trading bloc, the European Union.

How such changes will affect the economy of the United Kindom and in that the political outlook of the population in Britain is yet to be observed. However, for anyone to state that any constituency or region is secure or difficult to capture for any political party into the future from this point in time is, I believe, pure speculation.

For only one thing is very clear, that being, Britain will see changes in its infrastructure, social fabric and its economic outlook to an extent that has not been witnessed since the end of the Second World War throughout the next decade.

There is an interesting opinion piece in the Guardian today about the current state of the Labour Party. The writer, Andy Beckett suggests that it is losing the Labour heartlands in the north but is doing well in urban areas countrywide.

These cities vary greatly in terms of degrees of wealth and poverty and identity. Islington is referred to as being the home of the elite, but it wasn't always and parts of it still aren't.

Islington North has been a Labour held seat for 80 years. In 1979 the majority was around 5000. Corbyn's majority in the recent election was over 26,000. What does that tell us? Despite the gentrification that has taken place over the years, people are still supporting the LP.

A survey was carried out last month of around 1 dozen northern seats that Labour lost. by a think tank co - founded by Lisa Nandy. This showed that between 1981 and 2011 all of them had lost large percentages of under 24 year olds (up to 25%) while the percentage of over 65s increased (up to 35%).

The article suggests that the LP will not get back the voters from these northern constituencies and that they should re-think form where new supporters will come.

Now I am reminded of discussions that went on before the Blair government. We were on holiday when we met four people, one of them being the daughter of a Nottingham miner who was already a successful author. Her views were very different from that of her father although she was still an LP supporter. She said that they no longer agreed. Her husband and the other couple were Tories.

We concluded that the LP was not taking into account the changes that had come about post war. Because of the NHS we post war babies were generally healthy and a decent education was available to all, if we managed to pass the 11 plus. If one didn't go down that route there were plenty of apprenticeships to be had as well as technical colleges for further education. Many of us were able to have good careers and to become homeowners. Blair recognised this and moved towards the new middle classes but sadly went too far. As a consequence Labour lost 4 million voters between 1997 and 2005, his first and last election victories.

So why is it that these urbanites, many of whom are well educated and wealthy continue to vote Labour? Can it be that they have a social conscience?

While Brexit is often cited as the reason for Nissan potentially leaving the UK, its concerns were heightened when a no-deal Brexit seemed imminent. According to the BBC, it has other, more telling reasons for potentially transferring production to Japan. Diesel engine sales in Europe slumped. Also, the trade deal between the EU and Japan means there will be progressively less incentive for Japanese car manufacturers to build cars for the EU market in Europe rather than at home in Japan. All this is against a difficult economic background while the motor industry is in a state of flux over strategies for electric, hybrid, diesel and petrol powered cars.

One hopes the new leader of the Labour Party, whoever he or she may be, will regain the trust of the people by telling it as it is and not by being advised by 'spin doctors'. Tony Blair's spin doctor was involved in the Remain Campaign and we can all see how successful that was. Kier Starmer is now the clear, odds-on favourite to become Labour leader. If he wins, I hope, for all our sakes, he will play a significant part in restoring our faith in Parliament after the woeful experience of recent years.

GracesGranMK3 in regard to your post @11:56 today, there is much I am able to agree with in what you state. In my earlier post @21:31 yesterday I did not mean to suggest that the Labour Party should in any way engage in "blaming" the electorate for any "events" that may be forthcoming as a result of Britain leaving the European Union, but that the Labour Party should "remind" this nation that Brexit is what the majority have demonstrated they wished to see happen when such "events" do occur.

The above I agree would need careful handling both in tone and content when such statements are made. However, I firmly believe that such an approach could turn around the right-wing agenda that has so dominated British politics for the last six years.

By example to the foregoing, the right-wing of British politics have portrayed Brexit as being a simplistic answer to the numerous long term problems that the United Kingdom has. However, the events since the referendum in 2016 have already demonstrated that such simplicity does not exist, and this nations future dealings with the EU and the rest of the world may well demonstrate in even more harsh terms that Britains economic life outside of the European Union will be hard and very complicated indeed.

Therefore, for the Labour Party to declare each time there is news of a large manufacturer or finance institution moving its operations away from Britain that they will fight such closures and transfers will mean nothing when in reality they have no power to do so, at least for the next five years.

So, to just "remind" the electorate that the majority within this nation wished for the United Kingdom to change its relationship with Europe and become a more "independent nation" could prove to be a very productive channel for the whole Labour movement in Britain over the next two to four years, I strongly believe.

However, and as stated, the above agenda would need skilled and talented handling and that has been noticeably absent in the Labour Parties dealings with the public in recent years

Grandad1943 I agree that it is almost certain that Nissan will go in the near future. The problem with the LP taking the attitude that this is incontestable and all due to Brexit is that it will feed into the present perception that it is dominated by the Islington elite and out of touch with the North. And people don't like to be told "Told you so" when things go wrong, as GGMk3 said.
One of the great problems that will face a new leader (and I think most of us brush it under the carpet) is their attitude to Palestine, with Israeli lobbyists claiming they defeated Corbyn and addressing their activists as "Maccabees" I think there it may be real conflict with upholding human rights and being labelled as anti-semitic.

I would see KS as someone who is more able to debate with Mr Johnson and call some of the nonsense he can spout to polite but pointed account.

Whoever it is, however, I do not think the nation will thank the LP for reminding them "that "events" happening as a result of Brexit are indeed what the electorate voted for." This would need to be very carefully done and pushed towards the fact that what was voted for was what was promised not for what we will get. Blaming the public is never going to go down well.

I think they need the best PR and media team they can get. It is no good expecting someone to be naturally good at everything and although I think KS has improved when it comes to 'talking human' we have to remember the election was won as much by Dominic Cummings as by Mr Johnson.

Although it clearly needs someone who can unite the different wings of the party, I think the most important thing for the new leader is the ability to hold the government to account. This needs someone who can think on their feet, master a complex brief, respond under pressure and develop and sustain an argument. For me, this has been Corbyn's biggest failure during his leadership tenure.
I think Keir Starmer has these qualities and experience, far in advance of any other candidate.
One of the most extraordinary things I have seen so far in this contest is the description of someone who has come from a working-class background to become a barrister, QC and Director of Public Prosecutions as a member of an "elite". If Starmer does not represent what the Labour movement is about, then who does?
(I have been a member since the 1960s btw).

By the next election, people will hopefully have changed their minds, but they need to know that the Labour Party understands them. They're not interested in socialist theory or purity.

I agree with you Grandad. If Nissan goes (and I think it probably will), it's going to have a devastating effect on the North East. Not only will factory workers lose their jobs, but the supply chain will be affected, as will the reputation of the North East as a place for skilled engineering. There will be less money swimming around, which will affect retailers.

It's heartbreaking, but the people who voted for Brexit and a Tory government "own" it. There's not a lot the Labour Party can do about it, except fight the Tory spin, which there will undoubtedly be. People need to know in very simple terms why they're losing their jobs and why their towns and services aren't being improved.

I believe that the strategy the Labour Party needs to adopt over the next two to three years is to accept whatever comes about, but to remind the nation that "events" happening as a result of Brexit are indeed what the electorate voted for.

By example to the above, it is almost certain that Nissan will announce in the next few months (possibly weeks) that they are to end UK car production at its plant in Sunderland. Nissan stated prior to the General Election that should Brexit take place the above could well come about. In that, they have already suspended a number of night shifts each week.

If, or when, a complete ending of production statement is by Nissan the Labour Party should not make any pointless, and traditional, statements in regard to fighting the closure that they will, in fact, have no power to prevent. Instead, they should remind all involved that this is what the nation voted for.

The above would be a true statement of facts, as indeed in voting for the certainty of Brexit by electing a Conservative Government in the General Election this nation did effectively inform Nissan and many other multinational manufacturers that they no longer wished to have their production carried out within the United Kindom.

The above could well prove to be a very truthful and powerful message to the electorate which would bring actual reality into Britains post-Brexit discussion.

Delivered by a Parliamentary Labour Pary unified behind a new leader it could change the whole political outlook of the electorate in the years approaching the next general election, I believe.

I agree with most of your post too Grandad.

That's why I think the Labour Party needs to spend the next couple of years getting its most talented and committed MPs together and discussing in a mature way how it can formulate a coherent, plausible plan, which the majority of the electorate will buy.

To do that, it needs a strong manager, who might not always get his/her own way. He/she also needs to be able to delegate and "sell" the ideas to the British public. The media will be against them, but they have to take that on board and be more clever.

The next time there's a general election, people need to think "Yes, I'm going to vote Labour because the understand people like me and they've always stood up to the government on x,y and z". I don't think they care very much whether somebody is a true socialist or even a "Blairite". At the moment, people say things like "I'm voting Tory, because Boris will get things done and, anyway, the alternative is that Marxist antipatriotic Corbyn - friend of terrorists and anti-Semitic". Personally, I don't think that's true, but people's thinking is often very black and white.The next Labour leader needs to be on the ball for signs of smearing and know how to deal with it.

I hope (for the sake of the majority) they choose somebody who's up to the job.