Well done Lawrence Fox!

tickingbird On the subject of unanswered questions, would you mind letting us know whether you think that a comment about wondering if one's ideas about manners are out of kilter equates to 'an attack of the vapours', please?

Eglantine - a black or coloured person's opinion on racism experienced by .... black or coloured person - of course has more weight- together with the rest.

Are you saying that a handicapped person's opinion of the perception and experience of the treatment and prejudice experienced by people with a handicap- should have the same weight as someone who has never suffered handicap?

tickingbird Is this the 'question' you are referring to? You wouldn’t have any problem with a white, middle class intellectual lecturing you on racism and the varying nuances of such but you won’t accept it in reverse; that is telling you what isn’t racism Sorry didn't realise it was angled at me.
I don't think I have said anywhere I accept anyone lecturing me on anything, but if someone has studied the subject and was giving me evidence based facts then of course I would listen to them. But if anyone just shouts at me "It's NOT anything" I tend to ignore them. Should they also be someone who it is likely has little or no experience of the subject under discussion, i.e a man telling me women are not subjected to domestic violence, then their views carry even less weight, no matter how loud they shout.
Answer enough?

tickingbird Sorry, I'm sure, that I didn't score full marks!

I'll explain why it's relevant that she's a Conservative.

My MP, Kemi Badenoch, is black and is always denying racism. She is forever claiming that only Labour supporters cry racism, even though she uses her ethnicity to promote herself. She tries to promote herself as a black immigrant from Nigeria, who has made it good through her own efforts, when the reality is that she was born in the UK (because her mother came to London to give birth) and both her parents are medical academics with high-powered jobs.

Sherelle Jacobs used to write for the Guardian, which is how I'd heard of her, and used to do exactly the same thing. Like my MP, she obviously doesn't come from a poor background, as she was educated at the fee-paying St Paul's Girls School. I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with her claiming that she somehow speaks for black or mixed-race people. In some ways, her background isn't that dissimilar from Lawrence Fox's.

Yes Doogledog. I wasn’t aware you’d asked me a question therefore I couldn’t answer. Would you mind posting the time you posed this question and I’ll answer or is the question on your recent post about why I didn’t answer a question, in which case I’ve just answered it.

Growstuff. I’m in a rush but will get back to you later. I scanned your post and noticed this person ysed to write for The Guardian!! Hardly conservative credentials!

What hacks me off is that people such as my MP and Sherelle Jacobs can claim that racism doesn't exist, so people think that others who have suffered racism are lying.

My daughter's partner is dark brown, which isn't surprising as his parents are African. They're also Muslim and my daughter's partner has a Muslim name. He went to a prestigious independent school, has an MSc and a well-paid job. Nevertheless, he's suffered racism and even ended up in hospital after being attacked. My late mother was horribly racist. Although she would never have said anything directly to my daughter, she used to speculate about what colour any child would be and obviously disapproved about "mixing genes" (as she called it). That, to my mind, was racist and it used to upset my daughter.

But don’t you see, when you are saying “this is an opinion of a person who is black, therefore it carries weight because they are black” you are reducing them to one physical factor of their being and minimising, at least, all their other,more important attributes.

However much you might say you take “the rest” into “consideration” (which of itself smacks a little of patronage) the factor you consider me f most significance is the colour of their skin,

tickingbird Even the Guardian has Conservatives writing for it. She most definitely is a Conservative (with a capital "C").

Oh dear, full of typos. Well, what can you expect.......?

It was a reply to Jura. It took me so long the debate moved on.

But jura doesn’t it depend more on whether the person has suffered racism rather than the colour of their skin? Does the opinion of a black or coloured person who has never suffered racism carry more weight than that of a white person who has suffered racism just because of the colour of their skin?
Do you assume that all handicapped people feel the same and would be able to feel equal empathy with people of other disabilities just because they too are disabled? Is a person in a wheelchair more entitled to give an opinion on how disabled people are treated than a deaf person who can walk purely because the person in a wheelchair is more visibly disabled?

Sorry eglantine I too spent so long typing I didn’t see yours when I posted my comment also to jura

tickingbird

1000s of factors come into consideration. Also the time a person grew up, or the country, and so many others too.

But I'd say a person who experiences the prejudice and difficulties related to being handicapped, will understand the issues better, and hopefully be more empathetic. But yes, I was talking here about a specific form of racism, aimed at a sepcific group. They will understand those specificities better than others- and will also be more empathetic, or at least understanding, of racism in general or aimed at other specific groups.

Personally, being handicapped for a few years will have given me an insight of what it feels like- and I've never forgotten. And because close friends and direct family have experienced racism very directly- and in our family, the darker the mixed race, the more virulent the racism and barriers put across in front of them - I am perhaps more aware and empathetic. NO virtue signalling here, for sure, just personal experience. And for sure, those friends and relatives' experiences- obvioulsy carry tons more weight than mine.

Actually, as a quick aside, thinking about it- in my 40 years in UK, I have never ever experienced racism.

The only racism I have ever experienced, and I took it on the chin with a smile - was right here on GN. No worries.

eloethan, yes, that's the arricle. I'll attempt a summary of Libby Purves's points.

Thanks Baggs.

"Do you assume that all handicapped people feel the same and would be able to feel equal empathy with people of other disabilities just because they too are disabled? Is a person in a wheelchair more entitled to give an opinion on how disabled people are treated than a deaf person who can walk purely because the person in a wheelchair is more visibly disabled?"

I am not sure why disability is in this thread as an example but I will say that on the whole people most certainly do discriminate against visible disability ie a wheelchair.

Also unlike racial inequality nothing is done about disability inequality.

I have had enough abuse and disrespect to feel the how vile some people are for no good reason....
But I still think racism is worse because you cannot hide your skin colour. It is with you all the time.

But what makes me the most angry is that we -the disabled-are ignored. The limits put on my life because I use a wheelchair are massive. Nothing changes.
So while it is illegal to be racist you can abuse me as much as you want. Nothing will be done about it.

It reads a bit weird to disallow a black MP's views because her life is too posh and entitled.
I hate all these divisions.

Also I hate the word handicapped yes I know I should be "cap in hand".... it is very discriminatory to use that word.

I didn't think anyone still used handicapped even the term disabled is disliked by some people. It just shows how ut of touch some on GN are.

I am so sorry to hear. Actually, both for racism and handicap, the UK is still one of the best countries to live in.

Which word would you like me to use that encompasses all forms of handicap? A word will be liked by some, and resented by others. In German they still use 'Behinderten' - which means 'retarded' and it really upsets me- but I'd say actions are so much more important than words.

As you know, English is not my MT- we always use the word 'handicap' in French. Does it really come from 'cup in hand' - if so, I had NO idea, and apologise sincerely and will never us it again.

If ever one day I would have to be in a wheelchair again- I would certainly move back to the UK. The facilities re public transport and public access, Mobility, etc- are an example for the whole world. Which does not mean there are still real difficulties. When I was disabled in the early 70s- it was impossible for me to get out of the house or go anywhere.

So what term do we use, trisher? Are we to pretend we are all the same, just as there is (supposedly) no longer any gender difference? We all look the same in the dark I suppose!

What word would you prefer Trisher? You must find something that will be accepted by all, remembering that some of us may not agree with your choice of word.