Well done Lawrence Fox!

The Nazis had a very clever Economics Minister called Hjalmar Schacht, who was responsible for making it appear that the German economy was booming after years of gloom. He promoted public building programmes, including motorways, which reduced unemployment. He actually disagreed with "illegal activities" against Jewish minorities.

Schacht started off supporting the Nazis because he saw Hitler as a breath of fresh air, although he never became a Nazi Party member, but he ended up opposing them and was imprisoned after the 1944 attempt on Hitler's life.

The reason Schacht is relevant is because he wasn't a stupid or anti-Semitic man. Nevertheless, even he was duped by the new air of optimism, which initially surrounded the Nazis.

Where exactly have I, as a white woman, set out what specific acts constitute racist behaviour? What I have said is it is not for a white man to make pronouncements as to what is racist or sexist, since it is highly unlikely that he, in any significant or material way, will have experienced either. In any event, as a wife of an Asian man and amother of mixed race children, who have experienced racial prejudice at first hand, I think I probably have as much right as Laurence Fox to express an opinion.

The comments that he and others have made about "real" racism I also question. Who decides what is "real" racism? Was it racist for Jewish men to be referred to as "Jew boys", as was a common expression in earlier times, or for them to be depicted in plays and films in a negative and stereotypical way? I feel sure most people now would regard it as unacceptable. Not because it necessarily materially affected a person but because it was demeaning and disrespectful, and intended to be so. I was suggesting that such language and attitudes, which some people in those days felt were of no particular importance, are now seen for what they were - often leading to discriminatory behaviour and aggression. If left unchecked it can be - and has been - the precursor to violent oppression and, at worst, mass murder.

Good post Eloethan. I think the problem is when someone is criticised, arrested or whatever because of their behaviour, but because they are black or ethnic this is claimed to be racist. If the behaviour is wrong then it should be challenged whatever race the person is.
Name calling or nastiness can happen to anyone though, old people, ginger people, anyone different. If the person is black or ethnic we call it racism, but what about the ginger haired people who get abuse? Bullies will pick on anyone so is it actually racist or just plain nastiness?

I don't accept that "we call it racist" whenever black people or people from another minority ethnic group are criticised or arrested. For a start, I don't know who the "we" refers to - there are certainly many people on this thread who challenge the whole notion of the existence of personal and structural racism.

Quite recently on one of these threads a poster suggested that discriminatory laws only protect minority ethnic groups but not the majority white ethnic group. In my opinion, this is a form of racism because it seeks to portray white people as "victims" of an unfair system, whereas many investigations and in-depth pieces of research have revealed quite the opposite - discrimination in various areas of public life - not against white people but against minority ethnic groups.

Of course, you are right, bullying and name calling can happen anywhere and to anyone and should be challenged. But can you really equate incidents of "nastiness" towards, for instance, the example you give of people with ginger hair, to the discriminatory treatment in employment, housing and many other areas of public life of non-white people?

Trisher Apologise to you?? I’ve got nothing to apologise for. You’re annoyed because I’ve questioned some of your posts. I’ve also had a post removed that quoted Rachel Johnson’s point about MM having ** DNA. I was assured by GN that they only remove posts that have been reported so I shall be looking at the other posts that mention this and have them removed as I only mentioned it after it had already been brought into the discussion by someone else. For what it’s worth, and this is to everyone, I find reporting to be pathetic. Reminds me of the school snitch.

I agree tickingbird!

Eloethan: I don't accept that "we call it racist" whenever black people or people from another minority ethnic group are criticised or arrested.
I never said this always happens, but sometimes it does, and when it does then that is where the problem lies.

can you really equate incidents of "nastiness" towards, for instance, the example you give of people with ginger hair, to the discriminatory treatment in employment, housing and many other areas of public life of non-white people?
No, I am simply equating nastiness or name calling towards anyone who has been singled out. I didn't mention housing, employment etc. which is another matter altogether.

Eloethan

' What I have said is it is not for a white man to make pronouncements as to what is racist or sexist, since it is highly unlikely that he, in any significant or material way, will have experienced either.'
--
What are you saying?

I as a white woman cannot make pronouncements as to what I consider to be racist or sexist?

There is a fine dividing line in believing racism is only a one way track which belongs to only one particular colour of a person's skin and there is no difference whether a person is male or female to understand when, where, how both misogyny and or misandry takes place.

If we as humans cannot be permitted to comment unless a particular problem is related to our own skin colour or sex then where would that argument / attitude take us?

Should white MP's not be permitted to speak out or discuss anything unless it is in relation to people of a white skin?

Should BAME MP's only be permitted to engage in debate/discussion if it is topical to their skin colour.?

I am sure you will say that is ridiculous but it does beg a question. If and when a person of a different colour or gender is told, viewed as having no right to either, comment, pronounce or give an opinion in matters because their skin colour or sex is different to anothers that is not only ridiculous but perversely akin to racism and sexism from the opposite side of the spectrum surely.



In any event, as a wife of an Asian man and amother of mixed race children, who have experienced racial prejudice at first hand, I think I probably have as much right as Laurence Fox to express an opinion.

POGS, Chestnut and * Jaberwok*

I see Alastair Stewart is the latest casualty to be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness and racism. Maybe we should all stop speaking or interacting at all in case we upset the permanently offended?