Well done Lawrence Fox!

People researching this issue say that levels of racial discrimination within, for instance, employment and housing, have been found to be at a similar, fairly high, level as in the 1960's.

I'm actually quite shocked about this. I thought liberal attitudes had increased in my lifetime.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/28/people-of-african-descent-face-dire-picture-of-racism-in-eu

Amazed at Finland

Baggs I think this thread demonstrates that liberal values are less abundant than is claimed. Some people are more inclined to think things rather than say them - that is until someone like Fox opens his mouth, then suddenly people feel they have permission to air their racism.

My understanding of racism is that it is prejudice plus power.

Most people have certain prejudices but they don't necessarily have the power to significantly affect someone's life by exercising that prejudice. It has already been demonstrated that non-white people in largely white-run countries are far more likely to be discriminated against in the job market and in housing because of that combination of prejudice plus power.

A non-white person may be prejudiced against me because I am white, and I would find that unfair and hurtful. But, generally speaking, he or she would be far less likely to be able to determine where I may live or what job I can get.

I share that understanding too Eloethan. It's not recognising the differences which are the problem - it's the fact that there is a power imbalance.

As an example, the Liverpool football player Mo Salah is known as the "Egyptian King" by fans and one of the chants includes the words "if he scores another few, I'll be Muslim too". He's a local hero. Salah regularly bows to Allah after scoring a goal - as did Mo Farah on the athletics track. People are aware of the differences.

However, Salah has also suffered racist abuse and at least one person has been prosecuted for tweeting that he's a suicide bomber. Action is also being taken against some Chelsea fans for racist chanting. In those cases, the differences were being weaponised and that is racism.

Good articles by Clare Foges and Libby Purves this morning in the Times, covering all the salient points that this thread brings up. Wish I could write as well as they do.

Interesting that a black, female columnist for The Telegraph was on tv earlier and she didn’t believe racism was behind any of the criticisms aimed at Meghan.

Why's it interesting?

Why is a black person's opinion any more important than anybody else's? Black people don't all have the same opinions.

I find it very interesting that you say that. LF has been vilified for saying Meghan’s treatment wasn’t racist because as a white, privileged male he wasn’t informed enough to make that judgement. Therefore, a black female’s opinion in Trisher’s and, no doubt yours, view should have a much more informed view.

Obviously the goalposts move continually with yourself and others. I do enjoy the constant hypocrisy and lack of awareness. It’s become rather fascinating.

I just thought the chap looked ill ! Couldn't get over it.

Nobody is able to make a call on whether the treatment of Meghan was racism, as it was/is a collection of things said and done by so many different people, with numerous different views.

IMO he is highly unlikely to have experience of racism, any more than he has experience of the sort of life lived by the vast majority of people, and he most certainly does not come over as an empathetic soul, but he is not being 'vilified' for that. As he says, he can't help his birth (even though he could work on his arrogance if he felt inclined).

He is out of line not because he is ill informed, but because he did not allow the audience member to speak, shouted over her, insisted that his point of view was right, and behaved disrespectfully.

I'm beginning to wonder if my standards of manners are out of kilter, but I did not bring up my children to behave like this, and would be very disappointed in them if they had.

Sorry, by 'he' above, I was referring to LF,in case that wasn't clear.

For those who think a black person's opinion shouldn't carry more weight would you have the same opinion if women's rights or anti-semitism were being discussed? That is a woman or a Jewish person would have no deeper insight into the problem?
EllanVannin I think it's a look he cultivates

Doodledog Please put your smelling salts away. If you think LF’s behaviour was enough to bring on an attack of the vapours you need to watch some of these debates more often. Have you read some of these threads? Have you seen some of the stuff he’s been called on here? He didn't shout over her at all. He merely showed his exasperation at this constant determination by some to be offended, either for themselves or more often than not on behalf of someone else.

He’s out of line because he insisted he was right He behaved disrespectfully

What he did that has certain sections of the population up in arms is have the nerve and guts to disagree and show the exasperation many in this country feel . He’s being treated as if he admitted membership of the Ku Klux clan. One poster on here even said he’s inciting racism on the terraces. It’s utter madness.

Precisely Trisher so say what you that the black female DOESN’T think the criticism of MM is racist.

tickingbird I don't like identity politics in any form. I don't agree with people who claim that Lawrence Fox has no right to judge any more than I think a black woman can make that judgement about another person. Was it Sherelle Jacobs BTW? I think she's the DT's token mixed race female journalist and has been wheeled out for this kind of thing before.

My personal feeling is that Lawrence Fox would have been more convincing if he'd stated his reasons and not done. the luvvie thing of banging his head on the table.

I also don't think it was simply a case of racist abuse, although I've seen for myself some of the nasty comments, which were made about Meghan. I read comments claiming that she didn't do the "royal" thing of standing on the steps of the hospital because the baby was black. I also remember Rachel Johnson's article in the DT, in which she talked about exotic DNA. There have been undertones of racism in other comments, which are much harder to prove. Nevertheless, I do accept that there was a combination of factors.

As far as I'm concerned, people can read the evidence for themselves, whether they're black, white or green. Sherelle Jacobs is an up and coming Conservative-supporting star, who is trying to make a name for herself and it doesn't surprise me that she would disassociate herself from people who claim racism, whom she probably sees as "lefties" (as does my black, female Conservative MP).

She is of course entitled to her opinion. I don't think the treatment of MM is being discussed here but having some experience of the very real racism to be found in some sections of society I think the MSM may have been playing to the lowest market.
As far as LF goes I would really like to take him into my city centre when the EDL are having a march, and make him listen to the calls for sending people home whilst students from all over the world walk by. Then he'd see how 'lovely' some bits of this country really are.

growstuff Thank you for your considered response. I take on board what you’ve said. Yes that it is her name. However, bringing political bias into the mix, mentioning she’s a conservative, and therefore must be angling for kudos somewhat ruined what otherwise would have been a good post.

Doodledog Please put your smelling salts away. If you think LF’s behaviour was enough to bring on an attack of the vapours you need to watch some of these debates more often.

I am not about to faint. I said that I was beginning to wonder if my standards of manners were out of kilter, which is really not the same thing at all, is it? A very mild comment is mistranslated as a suggestion that I am having 'an attack of the vapours'.

I think your comment shows how some of the posts on here are indicative of the way in which people simply see what they want to see (or deliberately twist people's words), and pay no attention to what is actually said.

Baggs Do you mean this article:

"Obsession with racism is the new bigotry
libby purves

"Blaming Meghan’s flight on prejudice is absurd and simplistic in a nation that stands out for its tolerance and diversity............."

I can't access the rest of it because there is a pay wall. Perhaps you wouldn't mind giving a brief summary of why she feels there is an obsession with racism - and leaps to the conclusion that it is the "new bigotry".

Would you mind giving a brief summary of what she says regarding our "obsession" with racism.

It seems that only certain forms of racism are worth identifying and discussing whereas other forms - which don't just relate to hurt feelings but which materially affect people's lives - are more often than not ignored. The issue of non-white people being under-represented and discriminated against in a number of areas has been present for years, with very little mainstream comment or action taken.

Just going back a bit. As growstuff says, black people don’t all have the same opinion. Indeed to infer that there is a homogenous “black” opinion is racist in itself.

So my question to trisher is How do you decide which black person has the right opinion? Is one black persons viewpoint of more value than another.

You discuss and sometimes you agree to differ Eglantine21 It's what reasonable people do. You do not shout "It's NOT racism." and bang your head on the desk. Not unless you are an unreasonable spoiled brat.

Trisher You always manage to avoid answering difficult questions. I asked you a question yesterday regarding white, middle class intellectuals which you ignored. Eglantine21 just asked another and you avoided that.

But when you say a “black” person’s opinion must carry more weight you are saying the colour of their skin is the defining factor rather than their culture, their experience, their intellect, their temperament.

Is that not racist in itself?