How will we measure the success of Brexit?

I am sure that you do have a lot of sympathy and experience, as do I, but that doesn't make you right. Where I live it is how just how I posted. So I will stick by my statement. I think that sometimes doing something for so long can make your views stale and you don't move forward keeping up with the times.

So I will stick by my statement

and I will stick by mine. We can agree to differ - unless of course you are unable to accept people can have different opinions and views?

Oh not Nez going on and on and on about salutes again.
Have you actually seen one???

Yes Aprilrose I can agree to differ, but so far many of your facts have been wrong, just saying.

No job losses no food banks, no homeless, no long waiting lists for the NHS, no winter crises in the winter in A&E. Green fuel, no large food price rises and so on

There has never been a time when there were no job losses, likewise there has never been a time when there was no homelessness, it is a question of when we began to think that these were things we needed to do something about.

In the 1960s and 70s there were long hospital waiting list, although it was selective. Many elderly people waited years for hip replacement and other orthopaedic operations. Green fuel? I am not sure whether you are for or against. If against are you missing all the coal fired power stations belching out smoke and causing smogs, and respiratory illnesses? No large food price rises? Don't you remember 20% inflation for everything in the early 1970s?

Nostalgia is a great emotion, but usually heavily edited. Anyone who thinks that Brexit will enable the UK to be recreate the conditions of the 1960s and 70s before we entered the EU are deluding themselves. Remember that will mean no central heating, many houses in appalling condition, housing problems far worse than we have now, clapped out schools and hospitals struggling to cope in hospital buildings over 100 years old. No Pension credit, or many other benefits, much less protection for those in work.

Some may want this. I certainly don't

I don’t want them either ( who does?)
I don’t know a single person who voted to leave the EU who did it for any nostalgic reasons, more for hoping for better things for our country for the future.

Well said Lemongrove
I don’t know where people get the idea that Leave voters want to return to pre-EU days.
I have never considered it. I am looking to the future and am optimistic enough to think that we can make a better future now than what we had.
My only fear is that the change averse pessimists obstruct any chance of achieving it just so they can say ‘told you so’. Mind you if they do, they too will suffer the consequences, and will future generations.

How can anyone obstruct anything? Johnson has a large majority, thanks to our voting system. He can do whatever he wants.

My only fear is that the change averse pessimists obstruct any chance of achieving it

I think I'm rather pleased to discover that my pessimism is going to obstruct the achievement of a great future for the UK. I had no idea that I possessed so much power.

Revel in it, Nezumi?

Wherever I look there are posts by Nezumi65 about dogs giving Nazi salutes. ? These threads really have gone completely bonkers.

Meanwhile, back in the real world Lemongrove and Joeslnan have both made a very important point. We know there are large numbers of fanatical remainers who could even be classified as extremists, and they could very well try and make Brexit fail in order to bring about a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Nezumi
We need to stop the negativity, stop winging, stop projecting negativity into the world arena.
How must we look to outsiders when a vocal minority are on a mission to destroy the fabric of this country and its social cohesion due to sour grapes and a disdain for a democratic system. A system that has served this nation for centuries, has been copied by benevolent countries and envied by those living under dictatorships.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What negativity? I just said Johnson can do anything he wants. He can.

HOW can any remainer make Brexit fail? How? I don’t believe it’s a good think for the UK, but frankly that isn’t going to make the slightest bit of difference. Just like believing it’s all unicorns and rainbows won’t make the slightest bit of difference.

Johnson has the majority he wanted so he can do what Cummings tells him and we’ll see what happens. Certainly don’t have the power to make it fail though.

How must we look to outsiders

We already look utterly stupid to most outsiders, *Joelsnan^

MaizieD
Yes, that’s the point we need to stop this. I don’t know any non dictatorial countries that have a section of the community that seem to be programmed with an almost extreme sense of hate towards their country of residence.
These people really do not know how lucky they are to live in the UK., and maybe they should cast their eyes overseas to see how suppressed some folk are and how easy the freedoms we have can be lost through their disdain for democracy.

You seem to have already bought into the blame game Joelsnan.

I don't hate the country where I was born and where I live. That's why I truly believe that we would have been better off remaining. Don't try to call me unpatriotic because I'm not. I just don't accept the immature jingoism.

Whatever happens over the next 11 months will be the government's responsibility. They own it. If you need to blame somebody, if you don't get what you want, blame them, not people who can't do anything about something they consider a massive mistake.

^
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www.ft.com/content/c4f0d1e2-4442-11ea-a43a-c4b328d9061c

Nissan has drawn up a plan to pull out of mainland Europe if Brexit leads to tariffs on car exports — but to double down on the UK, where the Japanese company believes it could sell one in five cars.

Two people involved in the discussions said the contingency plan, drawn up late last year, would see Nissan close its struggling Barcelona van facility and stop manufacturing in France.

Under the scenario, the Sunderland plant in the UK would be maintained as part of an audacious attempt to steal market share from other carmakers^

www.ft.com/content/c4f0d1e2-4442-11ea-a43a-c4b328d9061c

That's good news if it actually happens, but Nissan itself doesn't seem so sure:

The automaker denied the existence of the contingency plans, according to a spokesman for Nissan Europe quoted by the Financial Times. “We’ve modelled every possible ramification of Brexit and the fact remains that our entire business both in the U.K. and in Europe is not sustainable in the event of WTO tariffs,” he said.

Source: Bloomberg

Growstuff
You could try to stop the negativity, okay you are not happy with the situation, I get that. I initially was shocked and a bit fearful at the referendum result, but like most I thought ‘well that’s democracy’ just as we have always (until recently) done with the general elections where millions have been disappointed that their choices have lost.

Growstuff
The content was posted 3 hours ago.

Here's the view from Ireland, Joelsnan

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexit-is-a-culture-war-with-economics-as-collateral-damage-1.4159247

And, I concur with what growstuff said at 00.40.

The Bloomberg article was posted 2 hours ago.

What negativity? I'm reporting the truth. Of course, I hope Nissan stays in the UK, but I don't believe in fairy tales.

If Johnson and his Leave supporters want to stop the negativity, all they have to do is get on with delivering what they promised to do. What's happening now is he's trying to blame the EU for changing the rules, which is a downright lie. The UK promised in 2018 not to change rules on workers' right etc as a condition of a trade deal with the EU, despite what Johnson is claiming. The debate is over, yet there are still people on places such as GN repeating the same old arguments of the last three and half years. If you're serious about reconciliation, come up with some intelligent reasons why it's all been such a good idea.

If we have good and solid trade deals in place with many countries so not all our eggs in EU basket.
If we are no longer taking orders from European courts and UK courts are supreme in UK.
If we control our own money and do not have to pay billions to trade with another country.
If we can control our own borders and no longer have to admit those with violent criminal records just because they are EU citizens.
If we have a fair immigration system based on the skills a person has rather than where they come from, which to me has always seemed racist.
If people in UK feel thay have at least as much if not more than we had under EU. eg money saved is used wisely for NHS and social care as wecwere promised.