How will we measure the success of Brexit?

And, more importantly, what are we going to sell them?

We have trade deals with the following countries:

Andean countries
CARIFORUM trade bloc
Central America
Chile
Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) trade bloc 
Faroe Islands
Georgia
Iceland and Norway
Israel
Jordan
Kosovo
Lebanon
Liechtenstein
Morocco
Pacific states
Palestinian Authority
Southern Africa Customs Union and Mozambique (SACUM) trade bloc
South Korea
Switzerland
Tunisia

With all due respect to them, they just don't have the potential markets to replace the EU. In any case, we trade with some of them already. Distance will mean that exporting/importing will add to cost and air miles.

One way or the other, the UK needs big, wealthy export markets. One possibility would be the African countries, but most of them are years away from being successful, stable countries and China already has its foot in the door.

The UK needs export markets on mainland Europe, but Johnson seems determined not to negotiate a deal. He bleats on about fishing and free ports, neither of which will provide more than a handful of jobs or contribute much (if anything) to GDP. In the case of free ports, he seems to want the UK to become a hub for tax dodging and illegal activity.

Amazon won't provide many jobs. Their warehouses are becoming increasingly robotised and their van drivers are not well treated. A London office will provide a few jobs in London, but I thought the idea was to make the country less centred on London.

I have the impression that over the last three years, the emphasis has been on "winning" some kind of phoney war, but very little thought has been given to the future - and that's what I'm interested in. All those people who voted Conservative for the first time expect to see some results, but don't see them happening.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-51094279?__twitter_impression=true

Isn't this what we should have been doing for our children for years rather than bringing in cheap already trained people. Our industries and organisations have ignored our children for too long and have avoided training costs for years.

It would be better if we produced more of our own food but due to the growth of population (5 million more in the last 20 years) that becomes less and less of a possibility. Free movement of people does not do us any favours when it comes to feeding everyone.

We already import food from all over the world, Joelsnan. Being in the EU has never prevented us from doing that.

But making it more difficult and more expensive to import from our nearest neighbours is ridiculous. For a start, it's environmentally damaging to import more food from further away. Perhaps climate change and its implications for future generations doesn't bother you? Let's just waste more of the world's scarce resources and pump more CO2 into the atmosphere by transporting food from further away...

Or perhaps you are happy to see the destruction of our farming industry when they can't compete with cheap food produced to less high standards than our industry has (and which the government has promised to maintain)?

Does no-one ever think things through?

Reading all the anti-Brexit comments on various threads reminds me of the stories of animals having been mistreated and kept in cages who when rescued refuse to leave the cage as they are prefer to remain caged rather than face the unknown

So why is it so much better to buy from them Joelsnan than the countries on our doorstep? If we are having to search for a country to have a deal with rather than continue to deal with those who are geared up to service the UK market what are we gaining exactly?

MaizieD
^ How is everyone buying UK produced food when we CAN'T ACTUALLY PRODUCE ENOUGH FOOD TO FEED OUR POPULATION going to 'make it work'?^

There are countries outside the EU (and not necessarily the US) who produce wonderful food and would probably be happy to trade with us.

Interesting

Nezumi65 I suppose I want my country back. The nice, tolerant, welcoming one.

You mean the land of unicorns and rainbows? ??
I thought that was where the leave voters lived.
I guess remainers will soon be dreaming of those long golden days when we lived in a land of milk and honey under the EU. ?

Sadly MerylStreep the latest from Bloomberg suggests that Nissan isn’t quite that clear - they have a new person in charge now. www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-02/nissan-s-brexit-scenarios-include-closing-european-plants-ft That’s from late last night. I suppose they’ll choose whichever is most economically beneficial to them. Let’s hope it’s Sunderland (& no doubt European plants will hope the opposite).

Your argument is a very reasonable one Greta and has been made many times before. Sadly, backing the small majority in an advisory referendum was, in this case, the path to power for some and worth it to them, whatever the outcome.

Thank you for the Irish Times link MaizieD.

I too was taken aback by the quote about the demography of those who voted leave, Nezumi65 and Merely quoting facts such as these is no longer permissible in the culture war. You might think he had been reading GN threads. Sadly, I think Equally unacceptable is to point out that the legitimate grievances of the typical Leave voter will not be addressed by Brexit is also true.

Even more extreme but believable is the fact that the culture war - played out on here daily - is a cancer we cannot cure. In past times such cultural rifts have ended as Orwell commented when the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield.”

Terrifying but again, all too believable.

Good news for the people in the Northeast.
Nissan are backing the uk in the case of a no deal.
If there is no deal Nissan will pull out of mainland Europe.

Amazing really when you think that a company as huge as this is backing a little no nothing, can't produce anything, looser country.
It's in the FT if anyone's interested. I doubt if 'most' on this thread are.

Isn't it now absolutely clear that the referendum result of a mere 52% in favour of leaving the EU should never have been acted upon. I have previously mentioned the referendum in Sweden in the 1960's when the public voted on Sweden changing driving on the left to driving on the right. The vote was 80% in favour of keeping left side driving. Despite this huge majority the government of the day decided that it was in Sweden's best long-term interest to change. The vote had been cast in a referendum and therefore was only advisory. The change took place.

In this country we decided that 52% was all that was needed to implement our definition of democracy. And now we are blaming the 48% for thwarting a 'democratic' decision and we are witnessing what that has lead to.

I think that the majority are keen and ready to make it work and they will succeed. The miserable winghers will bask in their negativity and be dragged down with it.

How are the people who lose their jobs when their employer relocates to the EU, or winds up their business because the cost of exporting to the EU (additional paperwork and checks) makes them unprofitable, going to 'make it work'?

How are the farmers losing going out of business because they're undercut by cheap imports of food produced by lower the standards than those the UK has prided itself on for msny years, or they can't get anyone to harvest the crops going to 'make it work'?

How is Remainers being like children at a pantomime and screaming 'I believe in Brexit' going to 'make it work'?

How is everyone buying UK produced food when we CAN'T ACTUALLY PRODUCE ENOUGH FOOD TO FEED OUR POPULATION going to 'make it work'?

Is some dim memory of the 1960s 'I'm Backing Britain' campaign, which had zero effect on our economy, surfacing here?

Stop saying those those of us who reject nativism and xenophobia want the country to fail or hate the UK (for as long as it lasts). I hate the increasing nasty populist rhetoric. I suppose I want my country back. The nice, tolerant, welcoming one.

The Irish Times article is interesting - I find the US perspective often interesting as well & look to the NY Times and other American papers for their perspective often.

I laughed out loud at this:

Analysis reveals that “voting Leave is associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction”, Eleonora Alabrese, Sascha Becker, Thiemo Fetzer and Dennis Novy report in Who Voted for Brexit? (European Journal of Political Economy, 2019). This study is one of many that all reach similar conclusions. Merely quoting facts such as these is no longer permissible in the culture war. Equally unacceptable is to point out that the legitimate grievances of the typical Leave voter will not be addressed by Brexit

Given the abuse I received for posting exactly the same quote the author is absolutely correct in saying posting facts such as the above is no longer permissible. Perhaps they were reading GN while writing the article.

How about stopping blaming everybody else?

Nope! I have no desire at all to see the country fail. I would gain no satisfaction at all from being right. Please don't judge others by your own standards.

I just don't buy into airy fairy promises with no basis in fact.

Errrmmm … I'm so glad that your own meat supply is assured. What about all the vegetarians and those who can't afford to go to a butcher, but rely on supermarket cheap meat?

Which orders do we have to take from EU courts?

The UK does control its own money and always has.

I agree that it would be good, if the UK does actually save any money. So let the government tell us how they're going to spend it, rather than insisting that all government departments find savings of 5% and cutting grants to local authorities, especially in the poorest areas. I'm all for it!

The UK does already have trade deals with other countries, but there's a reason why it's advantageous to deal with the EU.

It is simply not the case that we can’t criminals entering the country. The EU’s 2004 citizenship directive makes it clear that the free movement of people within the EU is not an unqualified right and can be restricted on grounds of “public policy, public security or public health”. This means that serious offenders can be denied entry and the right to live in Britain. The UK's continuing membership of Europol is one of the issues which needs to be agreed by the end of 2020.

There seem to be people willing the country to fail just to prove they are right. Tough luck to their children and grandchildren’s future as long as their smug superiority is not challenged in any way.

I think that the majority are keen and ready to make it work and they will succeed. The miserable winghers will bask in their negativity and be dragged down with it.

We have excellent butchers many who own or part own their flocks and we will continue to buy from them. If you need cheaper cuts the butcher will offer suggestions and recipes.

If we have good and solid trade deals in place with many countries so not all our eggs in EU basket.
If we are no longer taking orders from European courts and UK courts are supreme in UK.
If we control our own money and do not have to pay billions to trade with another country.
If we can control our own borders and no longer have to admit those with violent criminal records just because they are EU citizens.
If we have a fair immigration system based on the skills a person has rather than where they come from, which to me has always seemed racist.
If people in UK feel thay have at least as much if not more than we had under EU. eg money saved is used wisely for NHS and social care as wecwere promised.

What negativity? I'm reporting the truth. Of course, I hope Nissan stays in the UK, but I don't believe in fairy tales.

If Johnson and his Leave supporters want to stop the negativity, all they have to do is get on with delivering what they promised to do. What's happening now is he's trying to blame the EU for changing the rules, which is a downright lie. The UK promised in 2018 not to change rules on workers' right etc as a condition of a trade deal with the EU, despite what Johnson is claiming. The debate is over, yet there are still people on places such as GN repeating the same old arguments of the last three and half years. If you're serious about reconciliation, come up with some intelligent reasons why it's all been such a good idea.

The Bloomberg article was posted 2 hours ago.

Here's the view from Ireland, Joelsnan

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexit-is-a-culture-war-with-economics-as-collateral-damage-1.4159247

And, I concur with what growstuff said at 00.40.