How will we measure the success of Brexit?

Sorry, last two posts crossed.

WadesNan.....an important and interesting thought.I do think that fearful Remainers are acting in the same sort of way, wanting to cling on to the EU and scared of change of any sort.

Growstuff
If you look at the statistics, young people are more likely to study and work in countries other than the EU...do check this out. This is probably due to language.
For centuries before the EU Brits have studied, lived and work worldwide and continue to do so.
These of course are the skilled and educated. Those of a lower educational attainment or manually skilled have not had the same opportunity to travel to live or work and have seen their home based opportunities diminish.
This is the opportunity to redress this.

Exactly Joelsnan. British food is sold as a prestige product and is a tiny market, compared with the bulk of food trading.

If the UK does go down the route of a trade deal with the US, which includes meat, many British farmers will be forced to lower their standards or go out of business. We just cannot compete with the US on scale.

Growstuff
^ If the UK does go down the route of a trade deal with the US, which includes meat, many British farmers will be forced to lower their standards or go out of business. We just cannot compete with the US on scale.^

No they wont, it will just be sold as US meat and people will choose whether they want to buy it or not.

Joelsnan That could have been redressed by our government at any time. I've been bleating on about improving opportunities for those with lower educational attainment for decades, but nothing has ever been done. The UK has an appalling "tail" of young people with almost nothing to show for their years in school. Governments have only been interested in those at the top - hence the silly arguments about grammar schools and making exams more difficult. Compared with other European countries, the UK system is élitest, but the UK government could have done something about that.

I've also been going on about rebalancing the economy towards poorer areas, but nothing has been done. If it happens now, I'll be delighted, but I really can't see it happening - I wish I could.

As for other countries - I know people have historically emigrated to English-speaking countries, but there has also been an increasing amount of emigration to mainland Europe. It was an opportunity, which will now be denied to most. Even those people who have not emigrated have had an increasing amount of contact with Europe. I'm a French and German tutor and most of my work has come from adults who need to learn languages for work. It was an expanding market.

No they won't Joelsnan. It will find its way into products such as pies and sausages and won't be labelled. In any case, cheap imported products will force British farmers out of business because they will not be able to compete. Only the wealthy will be able to afford good quality meat.

Maybe if we consumed more of our own food instead of exporting it then we wouldn't have to import so much.

I have some sympathy with this, Chestnut.

This from the UK government in 2018:

Currently around 43,000 tonnes of surplus food is redistributed from retailers and food manufacturers every year. It is estimated a further 100,000 tonnes of food - equating to 250 million meals a year - is edible and readily available but goes uneaten. Instead, this food is currently sent away for generating energy from waste, anaerobic digestion, or animal feed.

www.gov.uk/government/news/action-to-reduce-food-waste-announced

Then there is this:

Household food waste
Household food waste makes up 70% of the total UK food waste post-farm gate, at 6.6 Mt. Over two-thirds of this (68%; 4.5 Mt) was food intended to be eaten, with a value of almost £14 billion in 2018. The remainder (2.1 Mt) consisted of inedible parts, such as bones and egg shells. After a period of stagnation, household food waste reduced, in absolute terms by almost 6% between 2015 and 2018 and is now almost 18% lower than in 2007. Per capita household food waste is statistically significantly lower in 2018 compared to 2007, 2012 or 2017, but further data will be needed for 2019 onwards to establish whether this is a true downward trend

Which is encouraging but still shocking..

wrap.org.uk/sites/files/wrap/Progress_against_Courtauld_2025_targets_and_UN_SDG_123.pdf

But, if we consumed all the food we produced instead of exporting some of it, what implications does it have for the international trade which Joelsnan talks about?

No they wont, it will just be sold as US meat and people will choose whether they want to buy it or not.

Not if the US wins out in trade negotiations (as they are more than likely to do, having more 'muscle' than the isolated UK). They don't want the food we import from them to be labelled with country of origin. So we'll not know to avoid it...

I disagree that "Remainers" are scared of change. It seems those who voted to leave the EU are the ones who are parochial and want the opportunities to come to them. Of course, there are some wealthy, very well educated people who already do business in non-EU countries, but they're not providing UK jobs to the less well-educated in the UK.

Well I'm bl**dy terrified of this one, growstuff!

Not for me (though I deplore our right wing populist government and what it intends to do), but for younger generations.

We will never be able to meet all our food needs internally. There are few countries that do especially as a result of population growth, and becoming used to being provided with foods that are not seasonal to our climate. But trade depends on us buying things we need like potatoes, tinned tomatoes etc and selling things that other countries need like baked beans and Aberdeen Angus beef. That has always been the basis of trade.

MaizieD
What exactly are you terrified of and what is your definition of right wing populism?

PM Cameron promised the results of UK referendum would be acted upon. This was known before we all voted so saying it was advisory is petty when PM had already agreed to honour results.

I'm going to go into Leaver mode here, Joelsnan and say that you haven't really been taking in anything I've posted over the past 3+ years. Especially about the modus operandi of Johnson and his co-conspirators..

^ A new manufacturing base in Yorkshire could help to^transform the lives of thousands of patients around the world.^

The healthcare investment vehicle Impel Healthcare Catalyst has announced an additional seven figure investment into its portfolio business Trio Healthcare.

Yorkshire post today...sorry cant post link

MaizieD
I have read, evaluated and dismissed much in your posts. Just as I suppose you have done with mine ?

Indeed and now the UK is truly on its way out of the EU. The time has come to make sure the government delivers what was promised.

If you've ever read publications produced by the ERG and Conservative think tanks, their agenda isn't to increase UK food production or create jobs in the north and midlands. Their vision is to create a sort of Singapore-on-Thames. They know perfectly well that the UK can't produce anywhere near the food it needs and food production (and fishing) doesn't create a vibrant economy. They also know that traditional manufacturing is dead, unless millions of workers are prepared to accept the wages of third world countries.

They know that the UK's future is somewhere else. Currently, services are by far our biggest export and they want to exploit that. Technology means that it's becoming less labour-intensive and the jobs available aren't for the least well-educated. They're for highly educated people, probably living in the leafier areas and trendy parts of cities.

My personal feeling is that we are where we are and have to hold the government to account and ensure that opportunities and wealth are dispersed to other areas outside London and the south east. From what's been said and done so far, I'm sceptical.

PS. I wish for and truly hope the country gets an effective and pragmatic opposition and the media start to question what the government is doing. The simple yes/no Brexit debate is over, but the real work starts now.

That's good news for Skipton Joelsnan. Hopefully, more companies will do the same. Another news source says the investment is £1 million and will create high-skilled jobs, but that's not a result of Brexit. Currently, most of those kind of jobs are concentrated in Oxford, Cambridge and London. It was only a matter of time before property prices in those three cities forced businesses to cheaper areas. Skipton now needs to provide an environment where young (mainly), well-educated people will want to work. I hope it doesn't do what Cambridge has done and force the "tail" out.

BTW Here are the links:

www.insidermedia.com/news/yorkshire/further-seven-figure-investment-for-trio-healthcare

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/skilled-manufacturing-jobs-are-being-created-on-the-edge-of-the-yorkshire-dales-by-healthcare-firm-1-10234477

You can't believe both " it will just be sold as US meat and people will choose " and what we hear about the US insisting that things should not be labelled with country of origin.

Populism is a disputed term, but all forms of it put the "people" at the heart of ideology. The most significant historical example is probably Nazism, which is why the word "Volk" (people) appeared in nearly all Hitler's speeches. The Volkswagen was originally introduced to appeal to the people and make them think they had some control.

The appeal to people who think they are ignored by the so-called élites is obvious. Some countries, such as Singapore, have no truck with populism. It's a democracy, but in the end people have to obey the government and don't have much say. It claims to be meritocratic, which means the top jobs are done by those best suited to them. Other democracies, such as Pakistan, have problems because the majority of people are poorly educated. When they vote, they don't see a bigger picture and tend to vote on religious lines.

There are real dangers with populism because popular policies aren't necessarily the best for a country as a whole in the long term. Disadvantaged minorities aren't protected and the people in power aren't necessarily the best suited for the job. The Greeks called this situation kakistocracy.

Populism can occur across the political spectrum, but is generally right-wing because people vote in their own interests, or that of a very small group. They have little interest in the wider society, in which they live.

Exactly Elegran. Food products manufactured in the UK don't have to state the country of origin of the ingredients anyway. It's the EU which has insisted that raw products are labelled with country of origin.

AROUND 1,300 jobs are set to be created in South Yorkshire.
Hermes, the consumer delivery specialist, is to build a state-of-the-art automated parcel distribution hub located in Barnsley.

Due for completion in 2022, the £60 million development will be the largest of its kind in Europe and will create around 1,300 jobs in the area.

Yorkshire Post again
(Waiting in for an Amazon parcel is proving interesting).

More positive news. What kind of jobs are going to be created? Presumably, the hub itself will be robotised.