My goodness - that was a truly inspiring speech just now from Boris! ‘UnLeashing Britain’s Potential’.

... that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness.

I have been saying they are following the same path for ages. People think that extreme but we have exactly the above. If you re-read 1984 you can see exactly the same idea. If you turn truth into lies and then explain that it is expedient in getting what "the people" want they have to believe as you have left them with nothing to root their beliefs into - no truths.

1930s Germany used the idea of the Volksgemeinschaft or "people's community". How often do you hear the current government saying "the people" meaning those who believe as we do, or even "our people". When we become the "proles" (which I have a feeling is how Johnson already sees us) we will know they are sure they have subdued all reasoned, fact-based thinking.

Eloethan and Maizie - It's all too familiar to me.
I've read a lot about the nazification of Germany. The only things missing now are the enforcers.
I don't want to read any more.

Hannah Arendt, who analysed the rise of the third Reich and how the German people were brought to be compliant. Many commentators see parallels with the Trump regime and with Johnson's tactics

In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and nothing was true... The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness.

The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end---is being destroyed.

www.openculture.com/2017/01/hannah-arendt-explains-how-propaganda-uses-lies-to-erode-all-truth-morality.html

Who’s seen the latest from Priti Patel - she doesn’t appear to understand the difference between terrorism and counterterrorism.

No real surprise there though Nezumi. Just more horror that she is a minister.

Boris Johnson always looks dishevelled Vegans it’s his ‘thing’.
As for speeches/rhetoric, yes, of course, they all have speech writers ( even Churchill!) but speeches still matter....a lot.
Speeches and their delivery can make or break politicians, which is where T May often fell down.
It’s early days still for this new Cabinet, we can really only judge later this year how things are progressing.

From the Guardian Diplomatic Editor:

Patrick Wintour
@patrickwintour

Claire O'Neill, sacked by No 10, says "my advice to anybody to whom Boris is making promises - whether its voters, world leaders, ministers, employees or indeed family members - is 'Get it in writing, get a lawyer to look at it and make sure the money is in the bank'."

twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/1224596491693629441

Spot on Chestnut ???

I voted Conservative as we have got an exceptional constituency MP.

I am however not very happy with the way that the cabinet is avoiding TV interviews, and now appears to be "vetting" journalists for "briefings". I can only hope that they come to their senses quickly and reverse this.

Just saw a clip of the dishevelled Boris talking absolute gibberish whilst staring at the ceiling with his mouth open. If you think that’s inspirational no wonder we’re in the mess we’re in.

Who’s seen the latest from Priti Patel - she doesn’t appear to understand the difference between terrorism and counterterrorism.

Thank you for the various links, Maizie. The EU's negotiating proposal is, as you say, not an easy read but the commentaries are more digestible. I listened to our PM's speech and could not understand all the enthusiastic cries of ”Wow!” It was, of course, very much a Boris speech, hot air and not a lot of detail. Surely, our government should now make their proposal available to all of us. That is what you would expect in a democracy.

This is the most dangerous government in my lifetime. They think they can act without scrutiny. Since this way of behaviour has arrived with Johnson I assume it is Cummings doing. Much as I thought Theresa May was awful she didn’t behave like this. She’ll still vote along with him though - they all will

There is no Australia deal. Johnson assumes correctly people won’t understand that. inews.co.uk/news/politics/brexit/brexit-talks-why-boris-johnson-is-touting-an-australia-style-trade-deal-and-what-it-means-1383293

I think this government is dangerous:

Extracts from Huffington Post (today) By Paul Waugh

"Journalists Walk Out As Downing Street Tries To Ban Some News Outlets From Briefing

"Solidarity shown by political editors after they were split into two groups.

"Journalists have walked out of a planned Downing Street briefing in protest at “Trump-style” attempts by the PM’s communications chief to restrict it to selected media outlets.

"The incident happened after No.10 invited political journalists to a “technical briefing” on Boris Johnson’s plans for a trade deal with the EU.

"The briefing was set to be conducted by the PM’s lead Brexit negotiator David Frost in Downing Street itself. Paid for by the taxpayer, he is obliged to behave in a neutral manner.

"But when political editors from other newspapers and websites arrived with their colleagues, they were split up by a security guard into two groups in the foyer of No.10, directly behind its famous black door.

"Those on No.10’s favoured list were told to stand one side of a carpet, while everyone else – including HuffPost UK – was told to stand the other side and then ordered to leave.
Following objections from the journalists, communications director Lee Cain then arrived to declare: “Those invited to the briefing can stay – everyone else, I’m afraid, will have to leave.”

…." Cain said: “We’re welcome to brief whoever we like, whenever we like.” After he was challenged again to give reasons, Cain lost his temper as the entire group said that they were walking out as one and would not agree to a briefing on such divisive terms. Cain walked off without giving any reply.

.............."SNP culture spokesman John Nicholson said: “Downing Street under Boris Johnson is now banning journalists from briefings if they’re seen to be too critical of the prime minister. Boris Johnson already hides from interviewers he finds too tough.

"The incident was the second within a week when Cain had decided to hold a special briefing for selected political editors, while excluding key media such as the i newspaper, the Mirror, the Independent, PA Media, HuffPost UK and PoliticsHome.

"It’s the latest in a series of rows between Johnson’s No.10 and the media, including his decision to order ministers to boycott morning programmes like Today on Radio 4 and ITV’s Good Morning Britain."

This sounds like the sort of thing totalitarian governments do. The only light on the horizon is that all the political editors walked out - but I wonder if their proprietors will appreciate their integrity or will those editors, in the course of time, be quietly shown the door.

free trade is God’s diplomacy – the only certain way of uniting people in the bonds of peace since the more freely goods cross borders the less likely it is that troops will ever cross borders.

I've seen it commented that this sounds very much like the situation we've just withdrawn from...

(thanks to an earlier poster for identifying the source of this)

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I think it's increasingly necessary to keep reading articles from those who can unravel the spin. Thank you for the links Maizie. What does Johnson mean by and Australian style agreement? They don't have one, do they? So back to no deal.

This is a very succinct summary of Johnson’s statement. (3 tweets) The ‘grow up’ was pretty much what I said when I saw it. twitter.com/mdouganlpool/status/1224386674995671041?s=21

No matter what he says or does, or however successful Brexit is, the doom mongers will continue to wail like banshees

In real life Chestnut do you speak to everyone who doesn't agree with any of your views like this? How do people react when you do? I know how I would to such being spoken to with the rudeness of someone else's sense of the over-importance or their own views, so much so that they try to close down all other speakers.

Yes, I've read it, Ug. In fact I've read three commentaries by different people. It's not easy reading but I try to keep informed. I've been around this world too long to be able to take everything a government says on trust.

The one I linked to is by a Professor of EU, Human Rights & World Trade Law,

There was another one by a trade consultant:

twitter.com/AnnaJerzewska/status/1224284831305150464

And one by a former trade negotiator

twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1224278485109215232

I don't know if you'd find either of these any easier.

Trusting the government may be fine but is it implicit or would you be open to experts saying 'this is not right', or, 'the government's assertions are not true factual' when it came to any statements the government might make on the progress of negotiations?

I opened the link there MaizieD. It’s a humongous document! Did you read it?

I gave it a shot but it’s way above my pay grade I’m afraid.

I’ll have to place my trust in the government, their advisers and legal experts. I just hope they do a good job. We shall have to wait and see.

Pleased to see the Human Rights Act mentioned - it’s a key piece of legislation for people with disabilities.

No Grandad1943! I would miss our political ping-pong matches!
?

Urmstongran
? I now know that i getting to old for all this politicking when I cannot remember if I am a leaver or remainer.

Time to hang up the keyboard perhaps. ??

MaizieD in regard to your post @20:44 today, what Johnson stated and did prior to the 13th of December last year is all now "water under the bridge."

I merely posted it as evidence that Johnson is an habitual liar who says whatever he thinks will advantage him at the time. He's painted himself into a corner now and relies on cheap rhetoric and the general gullibility/indifference of much of the populace to carry him through his current task. Also evading as much scrutiny as he possibly can.

Are you aware, Grandad that the EU has published its negotiating mandate proposals (the UK's, if it has one at all, remains unknown).

Commentary on the EU's proposals can be found here:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1224285445640638464.html

Just so that people who are interested can compare whatever the government and the RW press say about the EU's part in negotiations (similar to the completely baseless accusation of the EU 'reneging' on the Withdrawal Agreement which was in some papers this weekend) with the actual EU position.

I don't expect many people to read this...

False alarm ‼️‼️