Sensible Discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls MK 2

varian You omitted to mention that, in 2015, Liberal Democrat MPs including Tim Farron, Norman Lamb and Tom Brake voted with David Cameron's government to have the Referendum. If you read the debate, Parliament voted by a huge majority for a simple in-out Referendum with no planning for what may come after. Parliament (including Liberal Democrats) were complacent and unprofessional, treating this major question with all the finesse of a drunk betting the house on the spin of a coin.

You also seem unaware that some Lib Dems thought that joining a coalition with the Conservatives in 2010 was a very bad idea. Former leader Charles Kennedy was the most prominent. While there was agreement on issues of national importance, the deal also included a referendum (subsequently lost) on the voting system, strongly favoured by the Liberal Democrats.

You believe voting Remain puts country first. I believe to opposite but I don't intend to open that debate up yet again, especially on a thread about the Labour leadership.

I would be dissapointed if the Labour Party were to split because small parties don't win power, and if they go into coalition the smaller party gets destroyed. but I don't see how the party can carry on with this level of division within it.
The last leader, Jeremy Corbyn was democratically elected by the membership, but never accepted by the PLP or by the members who didn't vote for him.

If the next democratically elected leader is not the favourite choice of the PLP is the same division going to continue with coups and smears and covert recordings coming from people who did not get their own way.

Neither side of this so called left/right wing divide seem at all able to compromise or to accept defeat with grace.

Cunco I believe that the Liberal Democrats would be in a much stronger and more popular place if Charles Kennedy had remained the leader.

I am well aware that many LibDems were reluctant to enter a coalition with the Tories in 2010. I was one of them, but was persuaded that it should be done for the good of the country and there is no doubt that although mistakes were made, we had a much better government during the coalition years than since then.

I would probably agree with that varian, I am grateful that pupil premium for example came out of that government, a real example of progressive thinking. However I think the liberal democrats have changed considerably since that time, and have become mired in identity politics with little analysis of inequality within society. I could never vote for them now despite being an ardent remainer. I am unsure whether it was their time in coalition that led to their current predicament.

I don't understand why you think that Galaxy

For those that state that the trade unions withdrawing affiliation from the Parliamentary Labour Party would split left of centre politics in Britain, I would respond by stating that left-wing politics in Britain is already split in all probability well beyond restoration.

With numerous grassroots hardworking activists in trade unions feeling that many Labour MPs view them in the same light as they would "a lump of dog sh*t on their shoe", it will take enormous skill in any new Labour Party leader to rebuild and change such widespread and entrenched attitudes between the party and the broader Labour movement. In that, I feel there is no appetite for such a rebuilding process, although there is a widespread view within the broader movement that whoever is elected has to be given a fair chance of securing the above.

However, even during the course of this election process, there are those in the Parliamentary Party that are already expressing that they will not accept this widespread democratic election outcome should it not fit to what they believe the Labour Party should be in their eyes.

Many trade union activists that so often put enormous effort into assisting the Labour Party during election times have just three basic demands that if met would allow them to continue their support for affiliation to the Parliamentary Labour Party I believe. Those demands are:-
The revocation of the most restricting sections of the fifteen anti-trade union acts brought forward and implemented over five decades.

The end of Zero Hour contracts and their replacement with minimum hour contracts.

A complete end to Gig Economy Terms of Employment.

Only during the Corbyn era of leadership has the Labour party ever fully committed to above demands, and Rebbeca Long-Bailey is the only one of the present three candidates for the leadership to have stated she wishes to see that commitment continue.

Therefore with Labour MPs reported as stating they will not accept the result of the leadership election should it not be how they wish, and two of the leadership candidates having made no statement on the above demands, is it any wonder that affiliated grassroots activists see little future in that affiliation.

Certainly the foregoing is the overwhelming opinion within the activists of the two thousand strong road transport sector branch within Unite Union I am a member of, and I believe within many other branches of Unite and other leading unions.

Should that more than one hundred year affiliation be brought an end, then from what has been stated on the WhatsApp groups that have sprung up over the period of this election campaign a very credible outline plan for an alternative political structure seems to be well advanced in planning among those activists.

After all, as they see it, they cannot have gained less from all the support they have given the Labour party over the last twenty-five years, so, why not "cut the ties" and move on whatever the consequences.

So for example as a woman I find their policies on prostitution and porn utterly horrifying with little analysis on how this would impact on the most vulnerable.

The Broad Church Labour Party is over then.

The days of the likes of Corbyn sitting in the back benches voting against their Party / Leaders but being respected for holding a different olinion/view is over.

Perversely it has come about by those who once enjoyed the freedom to vote as they wanted turning into the complete opposite.

Long Baily has said those who donate to parties expect something back. Obviously thinking of the unions.

Lisa Nandy had an absolute roasting on GMB by Piers Morgan this morning. The Twittershere are saying she's unelectable now due to her evasive answers.

I can't help feeling, Grandad, that, in my fairly limited experience of a union at a local level, what the activists (always the ones willing to put in the work, so the ones in positions in the hierarchy) want may not be what their members want. If they split, it is likely that they won't take their members with them.

I ask you again, are you happy to see the tories in power for a decade or two?

POGS Quote [The days of the likes of Corbyn sitting in the back benches voting against their Party / Leaders but being respected for holding a different olinion/view is over.] End Quote.

Yes POGS, the above days ended when Johnson dismissed twenty-one longstanding and well respected Tory MPs from the party for voting against him over Brexit.

They went with no appeal process available to them whatsoever which they most definitely would have been available to them in the Labour movement.

Yes it was a terrible performance this morning. I want the labour party to stop demonstrating its ineptitude, I so wish this leadership election was over.

Grandad

Oh dear, whataboutery.

Well if that is addressed to me in the hope it will avoid addressing the point I made, to avoid the truth, all I can say there is no argument from me.

The point you raised has been said on the copious anti Conservative threads and I never argued the matter on them either. . Sometimes facts have to be accepted but this is about the Labour Party and I stick my post.

Grandad Am I correct in thinking that fewer than 30% of Unite's membership is female?

Cunco I would question the socialism of the unions anyway. They look out for themselves (that's their role after all). They don't seem to be that interested in so many of the other issues, with which the Labour Party engages. They're a minority pressure group.

growstuff, in regard to your post @21:58 yesterday, you state that the trade unions are a "minority pressure group". Would that then put them in the same grouping as the Liberal Democrats which did so well at the last election in which you supported them? ??

How is the election for their new leader going growstuff as we do not hear much about it, and being you are such staunch supporter I thought you would know. ?

I did hear that they had hired a minibus to get all the LibDem supporters to the polling booth whenever that election takes place that is. ?

I don't think that post (7.42) is worthy of you, Grandad.

I

Got carried away there. As I have mentioned I have sone concerns about what has gone on in the Lib Dems lately but that doesnt mitigate the problems that are going on in the Labour Party.

Galaxy, my above post was meant as a bit of light relief with all that is going on all around us at the minute.

We may well be asking some of our staff to take unscheduled holidays today due to other companies placing access restrictions on visitors to their sites.

The above I am not looking forward too.

I'm struck by the level of irritation/anger in your recent posts Grandad. It's not looking like RLB will win the leadership is it. You seem to be saying that if she doesn't, the LP must split to remain pure and true to the momentum ideals.

Your comment that some MPs see the unions as "** on their shoes" shocked me. The country needs a strong opposition followed by a Labour government. It will be like 1997 all over, public services totally wrecked by years of tory misrule and an almost impossible job to rebuild. Yet, you're suggesting split the party so the Unions can go off with those they approve of. How is that going to lead to a left leaning government? Compromise is a dirty word in some circles.

Grandad your post of 07.42 was not light relief, but in accordance with your many snipes at the LibDems. At the last election Labour had the support of just shy of 10.3 million votes and secured 202 seats. LibDems had just shy of 3.7million votes and secured 11 seats. You, to use your own phrase, seem to consider those 3.7 million voters as nothing more than dogsh*t on your shoes. You certainly enjoy dismissing them at every opportunity. I say this as someone who voted LibDem last time, but is not a member of the party.
Using the actions of the Tories to excuse a change in Labour seems rather strange whataboutery. You emulate an action you think is wrong?

janipat yes, it is disproportionate representation.
I have pointed out before how few seats the Lib Dems have in comparison to eg the SNP who had far fewer votes in total.

In fact, I was surprised at the result because I thought those who voted remain would have voted for a remain party although I do understand why they have lost popularity in recent years, probably, just like Labour, the issue of leadership was the prime reason.