Sensible Discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls MK 2

Well POGS I’m sorry you felt you had to post that. I never used the words backing up and I know full well that we have different views on most things. So sod your Peace, your post was unnecessary and patronising.

And actually I don’t give a flying fig whether anyone agrees with me or not about this issue. I just thought it was nice to acknowledge posts from the same perspective. I notice tigers do it But oh no, any opportunity to have a dig at me.

Maizied

I stopped reading the opinion of Jonathan Cook at the point he said :-

But the CONFECTED “antisemitism row” played a very significant supporting role. The disastrous consequences of that row are still very much being felt, as Labour prepares to find a new leader.

The issue of antisemitism was probably not much of a priority for most voters, '
-

Said it all to me.

He attacks Owen Jones which I could not care less about but the blog is a rerun of the copious amounts of threads we have all engaged in for almost 5 years, since Corbyn became Labour Leader and those who spoke out about antisemitism in the Labour Party and those who outright denied there was even an issue with antisemitism in Labour, CONFECTED you call it.

That ship has sailed and the truth is now known.

What the Candidates will do about it is yet to be seen and more to the point WHAT / WHO is holding on to the nuts and bolts of the Labour Party and that will affect their ability to lead Labour.

suziewoo, ie

Fair enough, point taken.

I'm sure it said it all to you, POGS because you have always wholeheartedly believed in the anti-semitic trope.

I had a look at his credentials. They seemed reasonable enough to make his viewpoint worth considering.

www.jonathan-cook.net/about/

POGS fair enough what? Point taken what? To be gratuitously nasty and misquote me? For no reason just spoiling what was an interesting discussion and the interesting point that all politicians should take heed of the fact that the issue of self id concerns women of all political persuasions. Well bloody done.

I would have thought ( wrongly) that all women would be
Extremely concerned about what is happening with the
‘Trans issue’. That a very small minority can be twisting politicians and the general public into accepting all their demands is so worrying.Most reasonable people accept that trans people should be treated with respect, but that certainly doesn’t mean caving in to whatever they want, particularly when it threatens women.
We are in danger of sleepwalking into ‘pledges’ and even laws being put in place to allow self ID ( as women) those men who pose a danger in many ways to women.
Women have had enough to put up with over the years to ‘prove themselves’ without being sidelined like this.
I am with you on this suziew 100%.

I agree with your last post lemongrove but I do wonder why this lobby group seems to be targeting the Labour Party, who are in no position to introduce gender self definition for at least the next five years. Could it be that they think they can bully the party more easily because three out of the four candidates for leadership were women?

The issue is, as had been said, not party political, but does seem to have become another stick to beat the Labour Party with. The media are making a big deal of it, perhaps to deflect attention away from too close scrutiny of the current Government.

ilove this ‘lobby group’ had their earliest successes within the Conservative Party. I first became involved in the whole debate when I learned of it through MN and the truly awful wholesale embrace of self id and TWAW by Maria Millar when she was chair of the women’s and Equalities select committee. My guess is that the activities of the WESC were not really on the radar of the Tory Leadership and so she operated under the radar and even published a consultation government and got Justine Greening on board before the party realised what was going on. The Tories have now basically washed their hands of any reforms to the GRA and the Equalities Act. So the trans lobby turned to the Liberal and Labour Parties.

This is not a stick to beat the LP with - it is a damn great self inflicted open running sore which is making a laughing stock of all the achievements in women’s equality brought about by them. All the Tories have to do is keep quiet and do nothing.

The Labour Party really is Comedy Gold these days . Fortunately , I transitioned from voting for the party years ago.

It’s not ‘Comedy Gold’ Urm Anyone with any understanding of democracy would realise its no laughing matter to not have an effective Opposition and especially with the totally amoral BJ and DC in charge and with the nodding chanting dogs around the cabinet table. Are you really happy to give an administration like this a free rein?

In the short term, yes sw
April could be a game changer but I won’t hold my breath.

I have been having a look over on Mumsnet at the feminist boards, and from what I see on there, the Conservative party has by no means washed its hands of the Gender Recognition Act.
There is a thread on there at the moment entitled "Emails to Liz Truss and the response of the Government Equalities Office"
The OP is trying to get some clarity about what will happen about single sex spaces for women, and not receiving satisfactory replies.
The op states "Whilst we are distracted by the Labour Party, this is the main battle."

It really is not a party political issue, it is a feminist issue and women of all political views should work together to protect ourselves and our daughters and granddaughters, not try and score political points over this issue.

Suziewoozie

suziewoozie Mon 17-Feb-20 11:44:00

POGS fair enough what? Point taken what? To be gratuitously nasty and misquote me? For no reason just spoiling what was an interesting discussion and the interesting point that all politicians should take heed of the fact that the issue of self id concerns women of all political persuasions. Well bloody done.'
--
No idea what you are saying to be honest , where have I misquoted you?

As for ' political point scoring ' is this thread not about discussing the actions of the Labour Leadership Candidates?

The Campaign is ' The LABOUR Campaign For Trans Rights' if there is a reciprocal Tory/Lib Dem/SNP Campaign for Trans Rights then that would certainly deserve a discussion /debate but it would be lost on a thread discussing/debating the Labour Party.

As with other threads there are varying matters being discussed

A) The Labour Candidates

B) Trans issues

The Labour candidates who signed up to the Labour Campaign For Trans Rights, 12 points were inevitably going to be scrutinised that is not ' political point scoring ', unless of course you accept the signing of the Campaign was so ill advised on their part it inevitably could be used against them. Even that opinion feeds into the debate about who is best to Lead the Labour Party.

"The Labour candidates who signed up to the Labour Campaign For Trans Rights, 12 points were inevitably going to be scrutinised that is not ' political point scoring ',"

No, but "The Labour Party really is Comedy Gold these days ."
is.

I think it's worth noting how this has affected other parties so that the labour party could avoid the pitfalls. Although it looks too late for that. The issue has caused havoc in the Green Party and the lib dems, causing a lot of ill feeling amongst supporters of both parties, I actually though the Labour Party might be 'too big' to be affected in such a way but it seems I was wrong.

This is based on 2019 manifestos

uncommongroundmedia.com/where-each-party-stands-on-self-id-and-womens-rights/

suziewoozie Quote [My little pink fluffy girlie brain had got quite muddled up as I was thinking about trans issues whilst ironing DH’s underpants, arranging a bouquet of daffodils and decideng which lipstick to wear in time for DHs return from a day out with the boys.] End Quote.

suziewoozie I am really pleased that you realise the limitations of your brain and the place you hold in your relationship with you dear husband. I am sure he will be very appreciative when he returns home from his day out with the boys.

It is wonderful that in the above quote a forum member is prepared to give such illumination into her everyday life.

Just watched the Channel 4 debate and I think the longer it goes on the more people will switch off.

I don't mean that in a derogatory way toward the candidates who are doing very well to keep composed and look comradery towards one another, it is like all other election campaigns simply too long a practice.

POGS in regard to your post @21:02 today, I have in this thread stated my view on why this leadership contest requires the number of weeks allocated by the Labour National executive. You have also asked me the following:-

POGS Quote [ Grandad, this topic has been discussed now on both the threads and you have not been asked this question. -

Do you believe threatening to ' EXPEL. ' Labour Members for holding an opposing opinion is good for the party? ] End Quote.

POGS, in your above request, I also have given what I believe should be the core reasons for members to be expelled from the Labour Party In this thread or the previous now expired thread.

However, I believe that no matter what any candidate for leadership may state in regard to Transgender issues, it will be undoubtedly the subject of several competing composite motions to be on the agenda for the Labour Party conference in September. In that, it will be the elected Delegate Members attending that conference who will decide following those debates what the policy should be, and that's the way any policy should be formed and upheld.

However, it may well be that this year's Labour delegate conference will have much larger issues to debate and deal with if anyone takes notice of developments which have taken place in recent days but have not attracted the media coverage many believe should have been given.

The threat of resignation by some MPs should Long-Bailey be elected as leader has attracted much anger in the broader Labour movement which will be the subject of major discussion at trade union conferences in the coming months which may well bring long-standing repercussions.

The date of the TUC annual conference has now been moved from it's traditional months of May or June and now is to be held in September just a few days prior to the Labour conference. The foregoing move is undoubtedly to give more time for individual unions to consult and debate with their memberships the future of the relationship between the trade union movement and the Parliamentary Labour Party.

In regard to this leadership election, a large number of trade union branches have now set up substantial WhatsApp groups to discuss the attributes of the candidates and form a consensus around who would best adequately represent the aspirations of working people and families in the UK.

The Unite Trade Union Transport Sector Branch that I am a member of has launched such a WhatsApp group to which approximately two hundred members have engaged in which is already bringing forward much promising and informed discussion.

To a lesser degree, Momentum has now been recognized as a separate affiliate organisation in its own right, which leaves me wondering what may be behind such a move into the future. They certainly now have the organisation and structure to take on whatever may come their way.

POGS there is much afoot I feel and that is bringing about large interest and more for those active within whole Labour movement. In regard to the time being taken, Labour party and wider activists have four years or more to resolve all the above, so, what is there to hurry?

Grandad

' To a lesser degree, Momentum has now been recognized as a separate affiliate organisation in its own right, which leaves me wondering what may be behind such a move into the future. They certainly now have the organisation and structure to take on whatever may come their way.'
----
Momentum certainly attained running the Corbyn/Momentum/Labour Party without the need to affiliate to the party.

Are you saying Momentum has now ' officially ' affiliated to the Labour Party?

Over time and discussions you stated Momentum was born out of the Unions and have mentioned of late there may have been a small division between Momentum and the Unions/McClusky, or have I misrepresented you, if I have I apologise profusely.

Do you have any thought using your own words ' what' s behind it '?

POGS, there has been some personal friction I feel between Len McCluskey and John Lansman but that may not extend to the National Executive Committees of either organization. As stated Momentum was born out of the Unite Unions community branch structure and many members of momentum are in all probability also activists within Unite and other trade unions.

The above, I feel, is why accord must be gained in the Parliamentary Labour Party. Continued infighting within the Parliamentary ranks will bring ever-increasing pressures on the National Executives of the leading trade unions from the grassroots activists to end the funding and other support of its political wing (currently the Parliamentary Labour party).

In regards to Momentum, could it be that they see themselves as the kernel structure of a new TUC political wing should the "plug be pulled" on the present Labour party by the trade unions?

I would emphasise that the above are only my own thoughts in this matter, but I do not believe I am alone in those thoughts.

Grandad

' would emphasise that the above are only my own thoughts in this matter, but I do not believe I am alone in those thoughts.'
---
I totally accept that Grandad and thank you for replying.

It is a situation you have been raising for a while and things my come to a head in my opinion with the new Leader whom ever he/she may be.

POGS, and all others truely interested in this leadership ballot, it would seem that the three remaining candidates understand that to veer away from left wing policies adopted over the last four years is a self-defeating strategy for this election.

They recognise that Labour’s membership retain a main priority. That priority is to preserve the core policies of the Jeremy Corbyn era, and indeed polls support that view.

However, it would also seem that many Labour Party members and especially affiliate members doubt whether two of the remaining candidates would retain their recent pledges in regard to the above if elected to leadership.

This election becomes more interesting by the day.

Link to the above can be found here:-

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/18/labour-candidates-left-leadership-race-members