Do we tend to ignore the true facts ?

varian Mon 24-Feb-20 18:48:46

'When will we get the true facts about Russian interference in the fraudulent referendum of 2016?'
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It cannot be published until it has been scrutinised by the new Intelligence Security Committee which has not been formed yet.

However we can still correct the fallacy that the Tories won the majority of votes. They did not.

I wonder why they are taking so long appointing that particular committee?

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202002/medium-806106-img-2963.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202002/medium-727973-img-2986.png

Britain First supporter, audience producer on Question Time. Found distributing new nazi propaganda at the BBC. Planted National Front candidate and Tommy Robinson supporter in the audience.

What part of that is 'by default'?

Not new nazi, neo nazi.

Goodness! Here's Ferdinand Mount, author and columnist for the Times, Telegraph and Spectator, not sounding too happy about the direction of travel of our government:

It's a very long article, but well worth reading (there is an audio version)

These are the concluding paragraphs:

There is now evident a puzzled disillusionment with the workings of capitalism which was not visible in the 1950s and 1960s. At the same time, there is no answering confidence that classical socialism would do us much better. As Luttwak argued in 1994, neither free-market Republicans nor state-control Democrats seemed to have a convincing answer. The word that has since crept into political debate is ‘security’. It is not by any means a new word in politics. Although an aficionado of the free market, Jeremy Bentham preferred ‘security’ to ‘liberty’ as the purpose of policy.

What does ‘security’ imply in the politics of today? Well, at the very least, measures to help farmers and small shops and businesses, dollops of aid to hard-pressed regions, repeated hikes in the minimum wage to enable families to survive with a single earner. Tempering the gale of creative destruction is the name of the game. This will require agile mental gymnastics for the old Thatcherites on the Tory benches. But we cannot blink away the piquant irony that the morning after we have sacked the Belgian governess, we are seeking new domestic help.

Only at the end of his essay did Luttwak sketch what he guessed might be the ultimate consequence of these upheavals. He foresaw a space that remains wide open for a product-improved fascist party, dedicated to the enhancement of the personal economic security of the broad masses of (mainly) white-collar working people. Such a party could even be as free of racism as Mussolini’s original was until the alliance with Hitler, because its real stock in trade would be corporativist restraints on corporate Darwinism, and delaying if not blocking barriers against globalisation. It is not necessary to know how to spell Gemeinschaft and Gesellschaft to recognise the fascist predisposition engendered by today’s turbocharged capitalism.

Is this then the new end of history, a sort of low-tar fascism which you don’t actually have to inhale? Faced with this dismal prospect, the first priority is surely to revive our remaining links with European institutions and to devise fresh ones to meet the altered reality. But there is a challenge at home too. I would have thought this was also the moment to defend and improve our present constitutional settlement: to entrench the human rights of ordinary people, to improve their access to local power, enable them to travel and work where they please, give trade unions a voice in the workplace, give constituency parties back their ability to choose their candidates, give local authorities back their financial freedom, defend the BBC and the Supreme Court and even the House of Lords and any other institution that the simplifiers are attacking. Does this all sound a bit high-flown? Probably, but when the weather is closing in, there’s something to be said for flying high.

www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n04/ferdinand-mount/apres-brexit

Thank you for the constructive comments, though I am not sure about the Nazi comments. I do believe the distortions and political slants in the tabloids, along with first past the post electoral system has played a major part in our election results. I truly believe if we desire a truly fairer democratic structure we do need electoral reform.

As yet, I have not read a satisfactory reason for the such higher support for the Conservative by older people. They know the Labour Party created the NHS, opposed the privatisation of Steel, the Railways, the poll tax and bedroom tax. Has it been the internal fighting, the bullying trade union leaders and the likes of Corbyn that has eaten into that support? If so are they ignoring the conservative austerity, cuts in care, food banks, homelessness, child and age poverty?

Or is it simply, that of the "I am alright " syndrome, I am not sure what the factors and main reasons for the obvious divide. Would love to have more views. All I know is I am personally worried about the views coming out of Number 10 at the moment.

Wiltshiregran Sadly I think it's the I'm alright syndrome. I've written this story before but IMO it bears repeating.

Former neighbours, he left school at 16. Apprenticed to the Post Office telecoms (as it was) commercial division. Did well. 2 children went to university and got good jobs. Private health care. Wife would do virtually anything for friends and family but believed that nobody should have anything that they couldn't pay for. Therefore no benefits. Sadly one son developed Hodgkins Lymphoma. Treated privately. Clear of symptoms for a few years. Then, shortly after a regular checkup symptoms recurred. Private health wouldn't cough up. So fall back on the NHS. Sadly, despite all that the NHS could do the son died. Change of attitude on the part of neighbours.

There are some examples of "I'm all right Jack" if not on this thread then on others.

Dinahmo The point of your story is.......?

Why shouldn’t your neighbours usr the NHS? They’ve paid into for long enough. What are you saying here?

Excuse typos I’m on my phone.

She's saying, they changed their tune when they actually NEEDED to access the welfare state.

So are they somehow wrong for doing that? She didn’t say the neighbours were disparaging about the NHS, only that they paid into private health care and when that was no longer available they used the NHS. Where’s the problem? They were entitled to do so and had as much right as anyone else.

I don't see the moral of that story as being about 'rights' to use the NHS, but about the fact that they had previously felt that people should only have what they can pay for.

That works well until you can't pay, at which point a lot of those with 'I'm alright Jack' options change them PDQ.

opinions, not options!

I think the problem with the progress made by some working class families is that they recognise the insecurity of their position, so they cling desperately to what they have, and seperate themselves from those who they see as failures. They vote Conservative because they think taxation will result in them losing income, and supporting those who haven't worked as hard as they have, and the Conservatives are the party of low taxation. The MSM feeds this fear with stories of 'benefit scroungers' and others supposedly living well on state benefits.
Meantime a system of underfunding ensures the poorest are badly housed and under-nourished, resulting in low educational standards. Post war Britain showed what happened when the lower classes were better cared for -mobility from the working class was highest in the 1960s. That can't be allowed to happen again.
As for the progress towards the extreme right wing, look at the lies told and the propaganda about the people currently being deported from the UK . Look at the unworkable immigration policy just brought in and ask what is behind these acts? Because the Nazis did not begin by arresting or killing Jews they began by seeking people to blame for the economic hardships the population endured and I fear that we are setting out along the same route.

Trisher, I love ALL of your post. So clear and yet analytical! My favourite bit is this:

Post war Britain showed what happened when the lower classes were better cared for -mobility from the working class was highest in the 1960s. That can't be allowed to happen again.

I LOVE it because it gives the lie to 'social superiority'. The middle and upper classes are NOT superior, they just have more money, which enables them to have better life chances.

Totally agree with your comments about the Nazis too. I posted on here immediately post election about Dominic Cummings being a Rasputin figure and was widely mocked. NOW look what's happening.

I WISH the population would wake up!

Thanks Gagajo as I get older I get more cynical. I used to think the inequalities were pure chance but now I wonder. 20 years ago in the US my niece had prem twins who were monitored all of their childhood, one of the main concerns was their body weight, because low weight affects brain growth and they were given nutritional supplements to help them. So now I wonder is the poor nourishment of children just chance or does it serve a purpose because bright, lower class children might just lead a revolution?
As for Cummings I can hardly bear to think about him!

You know, someone at (fabulous) school lunch today in my new private school said the very same thing. No wonder those children do well. Great nutrition. Unlike the children in my previous UK school. 'Pasta King'. Boiled to death, white pasta with artificial sauce. No brain power there.

Well Jamie Oliver did try with the school dinners and to be honest I despair at the food my grandchildren eat at school and at home. I am concerned at the poor diets of children these days.

tickingbird I doubt if your GCs go to school with a biscuit they have found in a cupboard for breakfast, or that the only meal they will really get is their school lunch because there is nothing else in the house.

Here we go again..........,Does it make you feel better? Haven’t you done enough signalling for one day?

Having eating school lunches in dozens of different state schools, I can confirm that there's a considerable variation between them. "Pasta King" pasta isn't very appealing, but it does provide the energy which brains need, especially if it's served with cheese.

Why do your GCs eat badly at home tickingbird?

Gosh! I did not realise the incredible debate my question would create. For me it is highlighting very much of the debate that is now going on across the country. I am also picking up a feeling that the support for the conservatives by older people is not as strong as I thought. Today, I overheard a hot debate in Sainsbury's cafereria, BJ & Cummings were really coming in for criticism. Especially over the Ageing Better report and life expectancy,.
Is the mood in the UK now changing, or is it just actives speaking out ?

Just got home after a night at the cinema watching a live broadcast from Covent Garden of the Royal Ballet. Excellent.

Now to more important things! Trisher and Doodledog Thank you for your comments.

Tickingbird the above mentioned have explained my point very clearly. Nowhere have I said or implied that my neighbours shouldn't use the NHS. I think that is just your interpretation.

Interesting Wiltshiregran, you chose high interest rates at the start of Thatcher, which was due to the mess left by Wilson/ Calaghan,. Then you forgot to mention the crash of 2008 under Blair which was probably more damaging. The truth is over the last 50 yrs politicians have not been very good at managing the economy, it seems that is going to continue.

Labour have had a lot of criticism on Gransnet, older people are naturally more conservative (small c), the fact remains that Corbyn was an appalling leader and the party got the beating it deserved at the election.

Children in deprived areas. A big influence in the success of children is the values and backup given by their parents. Parents that are working and have reasonable income have every chance of rearing confident well balanced children. Deprived areas with a high proportion of unemployed and single parents have everything stacked against them which makes it much harder.
If much more resources were made available to enable parenting to be improved in deprived areas the outcome for the children would change dramatically.